Robert Herbertson c1804-1879 Who actually were his parents?

[rickeyh]

Robert Herbertson in Portland, Victoria, Australia on the 23st January 1879.

According to his death certificate was aged 75 so born circa 1804. Place of birth was stated as Glasgow.

His father was listed as Robert Herbertson and his mother as Margaret (maiden name not know).

The informant named on the certificate was his son, Robert Herbertson jnr born 1843.

HOWEVER, I believe that the parents listed on the certificate are not actually correct and I will outline the reasons why.

1/ I can find no record of a Robert Herbertson marrying a Margaret in the relevant time period.

2/ The only Robert Herbertson I can find being born with a father Robert in around the right time period is Robert Herbertson born Feb 1807 and baptised 9 Feb 1807 at Dalton, Dumfriesshire. So place of birth and year of birth are both different to what is on his death certificate.

3/ Oral family history written down in 1965 has Robert Herbertson arriving in Australia in 1830 with his 2 brothers Henry and Alexander. There was an Alexander Herbertson born in Glasgow in 1823 to James Herbertson and Margaret (nee Hunter). He arrived in Australia in 1854 with no family members. His wife and children came at a later date. Alexander was a joiner by trade.

Alexander did have a brother Henry 1825 - 1876 but I can find no record of him coming to Australia.

Another brother, Andrew 1832 - 1901 did come to Australia between 1851 and 1861. I cannot find a record of his arrival.

(Another brother, George also travelled to Australia to escort Alice McKechnie the future wife of Andrew. George returned to Scotland).

Robert Herbertson arrived in Tasmania Australia in the 11th of May 1833 aboard the 'Eliza'. Surname is actually written and indexed as 'Habertson'

4/ A newspaper arcticle of 1933 describing the wedding of Robert Herbertson Snr's grand-daughter, Jessie Eaton Herbertson advised that she was attended by one bridemaid, her Aunty Peggy Herbertson from Lexton. The Lexton Herbertsons were descended from Andrew Herbertson.

5/ Family history again recalls cousins from Lexton coming to visit Robert's family in Portland.

6/ Robert and Isabella's children in order are;

   Janet Douglas born 1835 (Note the second name)
   Mary Anne 1839
   James 1841
   Robert 1843
   Sarah 1845
   Georgina 1848
   Eliza 1849
   George 1851
   Thomas 1852
   Samuel 1853
   
   Isabella also had a daughter from a previous marriage;
   
   Isabella 1831
   
   
If it wasn't for his death certicate listing his parents as Robert and Margaret I would be almost certain that Robert Herbertson is the son of James Herbertson and Janet Dougal and is therefore a half brother to Andrew and Alexander.

Robert snr and the entire family returned to Scotland for a visit in 1855 and presumably visited family. His potential actual father, James (the father or Andrew and Alexander) was still alive, but James' first wife Janet nee Dougal (1783-1817) was deceased as was his second Margaret nee Hunter. At this time James was on his third marriage to Catherine nee Rankine.

Robert jnr was around 12 years old at this time so 25 years later may have simply got the parents name wrong.

I have a copy of the will of James Herbertson (1780 - 1858) and all of his children are mentioned (including Andrew and Alexander who are in Australia) except for Robert (if he is a son) and Henry. (I have Henry's death certificate that confirms James and Margaret as his parents).

So what do people think?

Can you find any record of Robert Herbertson, the son of Robert and Margaret?

Can you find any record of Robert Herbertson, the son of James and Janet?

Can you the find the birth record of Henry, the son of James and Janet?

Thanks for reading all this and if you need any further information, please let me know.

Rickey Herbertson

[Neale1961]

A few comments
I see that, on the birth of Janet in 1835 the father is named as David, (not Robert).

The information on death certificates is only as good as the memory and or knowledge of those who provide it, so best not to assume it is all correct.

There are a great many marriages and baptisms in Scotland that were not recorded or where the records were lost.

Have you looked in kirk sessions in the relevant time period, in case the name crops up?

[rickeyh]

Yes Neale I have seen that David is named as the father. Intriguing but possible just a transcription error. 

I will check out the Kirk Sessions.

[Forfarian]

Never assume that the only candidate in the records is the right one.

Before the start of civil registration in 1855, large numbers of baptisms and marriages, and most deaths, either were not recorded or if they were the record has not survived.

George Herbertson, son of James H and Janet Dougal, was baptised in June 1807 in Glasgow, four months after the baptism of Robert H in Dalton in 1807. Therefore if this George is the one who escorted Alice to Australia and then returned to Scotland, your Robert isn't the one born in Dalton.

George Herbertson, mother's surname Dougall, died in Glasgow in 1886 aged 78.

There was also a John born to James H and Janet Dougal, baptised in Glasgow in 1805.

You say that Andrew and Alexander both arrived in Australia after 1851.

In 1851 there is an Alexander Herbertson, 28, wright, born Glasgow, living in Cumbrae, Bute with wife Catherine and children Margaret and Andrew. Cumbrae is where James H died in 1858.

Who is named as James H's wife in his will? Who was the informant on his death certificate? According to the 1851 census, he was born in Dumfries. There are three baptisms of Herbertsons with mother's maiden name Linton in Dalton, Dumfries-shire: Janet 1773, Rachel 1777, and Thomas 1779.

In 1841 Henry Herbertson, clerk, and Alex Herbertson, apprentice wright, are living together in Glasgow. Both ages are given as 15, but in 1841 adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so they could have been any age from 15 to 19, and therefore (if the census age is accurate) born between 1821 and 1826, which does fit.

Henry Herbertson, mother's maiden name Hunter, died in Glasgow in 1876. Have you got his death certificate?

I don't see the baptisms of Alexander 1823 or Henry 1825 in the indexes at Scotland's People. Where did this information come from?

There's a household in Cumbrae, Bute in 1841 consisting of James Harbertson, wright, 53; Margaret H, 50; Mary, 13; William, 11; Andrew, 9; David, 4 and Margaret under 1 year. Margaret Sr and William born in Bute, the rest elsewhere in Scotland. The only one in the baptism registers is David, baptised 1836 in Gorbals (Glasgow).

[Neale1961]

Yes Neale I have seen that David is named as the father. Intriguing but possible just a transcription error. 

I am not looking at a transcription. The original says Janet’s father is David.

[Neale1961]

I suggest having a look in more detail at Andrew Herbertson, as a way to unlock more information about the family in general.
It looks as if Andrew was in Tasmania at the same time as  Robert. Andrew worked as the superintendent of the government gardens in Hobart.
He married in Hobart in the Scots church to Christina Stewart, and they had a number if children born in Tasmania, including a son named Robert.
I can see Andrew departing Tasmania in 1852 heading to Melbourne. It looks as if his wife died in Clunes VIC in 1890. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/179326570/christina-herbertson

[rickeyh]

In 1851 there is an Alexander Herbertson, 28, wright, born Glasgow, living in Cumbrae, Bute with wife Catherine and children Margaret and Andrew. Cumbrae is where James H died in 1858.

Yes, that is the Alexander who came to Australia in 1854. His wife and children came later. Their son George Henry was their first child born in Australia in 1858.

Who is named as James H's wife in his will? Who was the informant on his death certificate?

Catherine Rankine is named as his wife. John Thomson his nephew was the informant.

Henry Herbertson, mother's maiden name Hunter, died in Glasgow in 1876. Have you got his death certificate?

Yes, I have a copy of his death certificate. Aged 51. Father James Herbertson (builder) deceased. Mother Margaret Herbertson nee Hunter deceased.  Informant was his brother, David Herbertson.

I don't see the baptisms of Alexander 1823 or Henry 1825 in the indexes at Scotland's People. Where did this information come from?

The year of birth for both has been deduced from their age as stated on their death records which also confirm their father as James and mother as Margaret nee Hunter.

There's a household in Cumbrae, Bute in 1841 consisting of James Harbertson, wright, 53; Margaret H, 50; Mary, 13; William, 11; Andrew, 9; David, 4 and Margaret under 1 year. Margaret Sr and William born in Bute, the rest elsewhere in Scotland. The only one in the baptism registers is David, baptised 1836 in Gorbals (Glasgow).

Yes, that is the correct family. I don't know what happened to William and Mary. They are not mentioned in James' will.

[rickeyh]

I suggest having a look in more detail at Andrew Herbertson, as a way to unlock more information about the family in general.
It looks as if Andrew was in Tasmania at the same time as  Robert. Andrew worked as the superintendent of the government gardens in Hobart.
He married in Hobart in the Scots church to Christina Stewart, and they had a number if children born in Tasmania, including a son named Robert.
I can see Andrew departing Tasmania in 1852 heading to Melbourne. It looks as if his wife died in Clunes VIC in 1890.

That is a different Andrew, Neale. He stayed in Tasmania and died there in 1874.  Our Andrew arrived in Victoria from Glasgow in 1852 aboard the 'Brooksby'. Indexed as 'Andrew Hubertson'

[Neale1961]

That is a different Andrew, Neale. He stayed in Tasmania and died there in 1874.  Our Andrew arrived in Victoria from Glasgow in 1852 aboard the 'Brooksby'. Indexed as 'Andrew Hubertson'

That directly contradicts what you say in your opening post, where you apparently had no idea when Andrew arrived in Australia.