Ryalls and Cooper Gypsy families

[Epensom]

Hi!

As far as I'm aware this surname hasn't come up yet (please correct me if I'm wrong!), but my family are descendants of the Ryalls (otherwise known as, Ryall, Royal, Royale, etc) and Cooper gypsy families that at one point lived in and around the Newent area of Gloucestershire, bordering Herefordshire.

I just want to check if anyone else has any of this in their family history and can confirm, relay any info, or just point me in the direction of any other sources? I've done most of my research on ancestry and have used books from the R.T.F.H.S, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on either family from what I've looked at!

For context, my 4x great grandmother was Caroline Ryalls (b. c.1826, not to be confused with Caroline Loveridge) who had 6 children with Elisha Cooper (b. c.1821) from 1843 - 1854. They split up at some point and I believe Elisha married Defiance Scamp (b.1818) and had 3 children, whilst Caroline went with Buz/Boss Lock/e (b. 1822, Son of Matthew Lock and Remembrance Boswell) and had 4 more children.

On Caroline's side I've got that her father was Abel Ryalls (b. c. 1794 in Newent), and her mother was a lady called Cynamenty, otherwise known as Sinah. Abel and Sinah at somepoint split, and he then remarried and had a family with Patience Lock, daughter of Merrick Lock and Mary Lee. Here is my first major block and I can't find out any further information on Cynamenty, or who Abel's parents were.
It's been passed down that my family were descended from Romani Horse traders that had come over from Spain. I have found a few occupations relating to this, but much to their dismay, no direct links to Spain.

I'm also a little confused with the Cooper side. I've found that Elisha (I b. 1821) was the son of Elisha Cooper (II, b.1795) and Frances Thompson and the grandson of Elisha Cooper (III, b. c.1770) and Tryphena Lovell. I'm a little sceptical as Elisha Cooper (II) is the only child listed as being born in Gloucestershire, whilst all the other children and parents were born in and around the South-east/ East. I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone can confirm this is all correct and they're part of the same branch of the Cooper gypsy family!
I also believe I've seen another forum post about this family being Scottish or having Scottish roots? (Again correct me if I'm wrong!)

Any help or info would be greatly appreciated, thanks for reading!

-Ellie

[Darnity]

Hi!

As far as I'm aware this surname hasn't come up yet (please correct me if I'm wrong!), but my family are descendants of the Ryalls (otherwise known as, Ryall, Royal, Royale, etc) and Cooper gypsy families that at one point lived in and around the Newent area of Gloucestershire, bordering Herefordshire.

On Caroline's side I've got that her father was Abel Ryalls (b. c. 1794 in Newent), and her mother was a lady called Cynamenty, otherwise known as Sinah. Abel and Sinah at somepoint split, and he then remarried and had a family with Patience Lock, daughter of Merrick Lock and Mary Lee. Here is my first major block and I can't find out any further information on Cynamenty, or who Abel's parents were.

In Richard Edmunds' "Early British Gypsies" Vol 3 (Smiths) page 103 there's an Eliza/Lila Ryalls mentioned as a possible partner of Josiah/Joseph Smith. There are Locks (Sarah and Eve) mentioned earlier in this tree.

Volume 2 (Hearn and Stanley) page 53 there's mention of an "Abel Ryall and his first partner Sarah/Sinah/Cynamenta Penny". Also Walter and John Ryall.

Edmunds also says "The children of these twin Ryall/Hearn unions later used both surnames interchangeably, and this is probably the true source of the 20th Century belief that Ryalls is an alias of Hearn".

I'm also a little confused with the Cooper side.

Edmunds' Vol 4 covers Coopers as well as Burtons, Drapers and other families while Vol 5 includes Locks. Leonora RYAL is mentioned in 1860 as a child of Lucas and Alice/Annis Lock.

There are 15 entries for Cooper in the index of Vol 5, 29 in Vol 1, 9 in Vol 2 and 11 in Vol 3. Some of these references may be the same across the volumes - I haven't looked to see if this is the case, just counted numbers from my copies of these books.

It goes without saying that you should always check the original of any references for yourself in the PRs to see if you agree with the author's reading and interpretation.

I'm a little sceptical as Elisha Cooper (II) is the only child listed as being born in Gloucestershire, whilst all the other children and parents were born in and around the South-east/ East.

Might he have been born when they were visiting Stow fair? Stow is in Gloucestershire and my family, who were based in the south east  seem to have travelled over to the fair at times.

[Epensom]

Thanks for the references, I will check these out!

I didn't think about Stow fair, but it would make a lot of sense given where the birth/baptism record was registered.

This will really help, thanks again!

[Epensom]

Also, are there any places where I can get a copy of some of these books? They seem to be sold out everywhere?