Author Topic: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED  (Read 4648 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #90 on: Monday 09 May 22 01:03 BST (UK) »
Have just purchased Mary Elizabeth SHEEAN   Marriage to DE VU

Her Mother on here is    written   as  ELIZABETH SCALES  .

Which i  guess is often another word for  Ellen  so back it goes  to Ellen Mother . 
If  its true .



I see on Elizabeth myrtles marr/cert

      "'MARRIAGE  BY DISPENSATION ""  ??

There is absolutely NOTHING  odd about "Marriage by Dispensation".   The Pope or his representative has given permission for the marriage - there must have been some question as to the eligibility of one of the parties to marry the other.  Mr Google can be your friend.

Rootschat has its own search engine.  I am sure this aspect of Roman Catholic church laws has been discussed many times.

BACK SHORTLY with links.

Here's several,  and yes,  Mr Google has lots of others,  so too RChat's search engine.

BACK !!

A thread about dispensations from a few years ago. Contains replies from Wexflyer and heywood. Wexflyer looked at the register page and then gave an opinion.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766756.0 
There are other similar threads.
Added. Another new one from yesterday.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855910.0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensation_(Catholic_canon_law)#:~:text=degree%20of%20affinity.-,Matrimonial%20dispensation,prohibiting%20or%20annulling%20a%20marriage.


JM



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Offline majm

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #91 on: Monday 09 May 22 01:28 BST (UK) »
Widower, so previously married. 

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
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All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline sparrett

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #92 on: Monday 09 May 22 02:49 BST (UK) »
Many here have furnished evidence around the life of Mary Helen ( KA ANDREWS ) in an endeavour to help your search.
To date your responses have amounted to remarks of having "lots of information" " i have tons" and statements of  "facts" without given evidence.

My viewpoint-
Harry ANDREWS was the nephew of Mary BOWLER of Mitta Mitta Station.
Show mw that he was not.

Mary ANDREWS was the niece of Mary BOWLER of Mitta Mitta Station.
Show me she was not.

your viewpoint as  understand it-
"No def not daughters of H Andrews  just  the same name"



I have lots of pics of her in school uniform  at school .    I guess  we dont know 100% .
The uniform of which school? Show us a picture please?

There is a local  Mary Glass  that could fit,    correct age    etc,    but no way to prove anything at   all about her at  this point .   


Is there? What evidence? Local to where?



No evidence Hennrietta  lived with  a GLASS.



No-one suggested she did.

Just pondering  the   about Elsie Myra   info and will go and have another look at    all of that Baptism Info   and the people  involved  thank you .    Really great observation .

Elsie Myra DAVIES was the daughter of Janet Scott ROSSER and John Henry DAVIES.
She married William Joseph ARMSTRONG and died in 1947
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245584218


 
FAther - not printed on cert but was def  Henry Andrews ( HArry )   and had life long r/ship with Mary
 Helen .

 

How was this life long relationship maintained? Did she visit him in Mitta Mitta?

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #93 on: Monday 09 May 22 03:55 BST (UK) »
Re the Dispensation...Looking at the marriage, it doesn't appear to be a 'consanguinity' issue nor a case of either party returning home, needing married quickly in order to return to e.g. a work place abroad...

Is it possible the dispensation was due to the bride being 'with child'?

Did they have children & when was the 1st born?

Annie

Add...Just noticed the reply from Sue when I was about to post...

Many here have furnished evidence around the life of Mary Helen ( KA ANDREWS ) in an endeavour to help your search.
To date your responses have amounted to remarks of having "lots of information" " i have tons" and statements of  "facts" without given evidence.

Like Sue,

I feel more could have been/could be added to certain statements you've posted which without are useless to others trying to help as the real content of the statements are only known to yourself...

"April 1917 - First son is born - she changes her age on his NSW  cert
1919 - She changes her age on his  NSW   cert"


Wivenhoe did find the names of those children but the info. wasn't particularly helpful to others, only to yourself as I mentioned.

"We cannot apply for death cert from Malaya  as not correct  papers etc..."

Maybe explain the problem as others may be able to help?

"i  found in the Singapore Archives A double page spread  printed Jan 1932 ( she died Aug1931 )  it was a 2 pg retrospective on  Expapts life in 1931 in Malaya.
One of the many columns was called " TRAGIC ACCIDENTS "    and featured my G/Mother Mrs E ,   F HArris -- however zero details of what accident  except it name the correct town  i have tried to  get more info  a million diff ways but no luck"


Maybe post a link as others may be able to help?

"She never appeared  to have much of a r/ship with her Mother and her Mothers informant did not  put her on  her death cert but neither did  her Fathers and they all  knew about Mary she w as very very well known."

Who were the informants & as it seems so far, Mary Helen may not have been brought up by her mother i.e. the informants may not have known the connection


Another with no response...

"What do you mean by 'missing all records'?  What records would you expect to find?
Debra"


What info. have you found on her half siblings?

Is it possible Mary Ellen/Helen was actually brought up in the convent?

Mary Ellen/Helen was born in Double Gully (I couldn't find anything about this place), her mother was born in Snowy Creek & was in Snowy Creek when she married in 1906...

How far is it from Snowy Creek to Double Gully & how far from Double Gully was the Convent?


Annie

Add...Yet again, another statement which offers nothing whatsoever as it's only understandable to yourself...

"interesting never the  less in context of the overall  story  around Elizabeth Myrtle."

It would be good to know what the "overall story" included?
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"


Offline majm

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #94 on: Monday 09 May 22 04:21 BST (UK) »
I fully support Sue's and Annie's comments.

May I also stress that the two NSW BDM births registered in the Broken Hill DISTRICT in the 1916- 1918 era EDIT - 1916-1919 era, may well contain differing information, AS IT DEPENDS on the informant's recall when providing the information to the part time clerk working for the part time deputy registrar.

IMPORTANTLY,  I recall on earlier threads that it may well be that the births at Broken Hill back over 100 years ago, involve at least one male who MAY WELL BE STILL ALIVE,  and that RChat has a NO LIVING NAMES rule.

Broken Hill BDM district covered hundreds and hundreds of square miles.  And BDM registrations were available to be conducted at various locations within that area.   That admin process, as with all the NSW BDM registration processes until after WWI (so from 1918) were VERBAL,  NO FORMS. 

Who would you anticipate attended to the  birth registrations?  -  The Husband or The Wife.  I suggest that HE registered the birth ... He is an Engineering bod,  he can read maps, survey maps, scientific reports, make decisions, and here he is in his late 30s, and FINALLY he is a parent.   His wife is a 'slip of a girl' in her 20s. 

He goes to the local Court House (this is the usual locality for deputy registrars in that era in outback NSW and elsewhere in NSW).

He answers the questions the clerk asks - the clerk has conversations about "where's the next rush going to occur? "  They waste time chatting.  The clerk relies on HIS own memory too, and fills in the column headings on the ledger FACING THAT CLERK, on the counter (four foot wide, and some are four foot six inches high).   When both the Clerk and the INFORMANT (father of the baby) are finishing off their cuppa tea at the counter .... the clerk BLOTS the details and then turns the ledger book (it is huge,  I have seen these leather bound books, not easy to lift, etc)...  to face the informant.

And what does the informant say ...   :D  :D  :D where do I sign ....   :D  :D  :D

So  clerk stretches across the blotted page, passes the quill, and says :  HERE MATE.

Baby's MUM has NOT fibbed, has not lied, has not mis-led.   Husband comes home that evening, he has a "receipt" confirming the baby's birth has been registered, and it names baby and both parents.

END OF STORY.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline majm

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #95 on: Monday 09 May 22 05:28 BST (UK) »
Her age is  written   clearly on both birth certs and not interfered with in any way .
 Born 24/4/ 1917 sons   birth cert  Father Ernest  is informant  aged 37  ( born 1880  )
Mary is aged    24 years old on the the birth  cert .
And its  reg'd 26/4/1917

Second son
Born  2/4/1919
Father informant   aged 38   yr written in cert ( born 1880 )
Mary age clearly written and no interference and aged 27 years old on this cert  in 1919
Reg'd 3/4/1919

Both  cert 's - Broken Hill NSW-look  clear with  no changes .
She has simply  aged herself at that age  and he has informed   the Registry   of this.
.....

Clearly,  Mary was NOT the informant. He husband said she was aged 24 as at April 1917, and aged 27 in April 1919.  So he was ONE YEAR OUT .... wow...  My own father could not remember what year my mother was born (umm.... she was born same year as him!)    simply  aged herself at that age  and he has informed   the Registry   of this.      Hogwash, I say, Hogwash ...  Mary has had NO part in the registration process.  It would be very very unusual in that era for a female to attend to a birth registration in outback NSW - exceptions would include :  husband absent (drover, shearer, clergy on a circuit, etc) or NOT a married woman, or ummm.... well - WWI - AIF volunteers were likely in Europe... 

There is absolutely NO reason for any adverse views to be formed about Mary at all. NONE.   Yes, she left her two sons in Melbourne to be educated in Australia, with close contact from family, rather than by strangers who may have had different cultural backgrounds to her, and she went with her husband to Malaya - where she had NO direct knowledge of the education system, and ... sadly,  where she tragically died at a young age.   That would likely have a lifetime adverse impact on her sons. 

There is no blame to be attached to Mary for going to Malaya.  In my view would be sensible if Mary's son/s are still living, to find the gentle words to comfort them at this stage of their lives.   

JM  EDITED to clarify some pertinent points.
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
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All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline sparrett

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #96 on: Monday 09 May 22 06:04 BST (UK) »

"She never appeared  to have much of a r/ship with her Mother and her Mothers informant did not  put her on  her death cert but neither did  her Fathers and they all  knew about Mary she w as very very well known."

Who were the informants & as it seems so far, Mary Helen may not have been brought up by her mother i.e. the informants may not have known the connection





As has been mentioned, a death registration in Australia has provision for recording the children OF A UNION.

This excludes children who were not product of the union which the deceased person was partner in at death.

Mary ANDREWS was not product  of her fathers marriage at his death not part her mother's at her death.

Regardless of how well the she was known.  It is Not a cover up.

Sue
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Offline Rosinish

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #97 on: Monday 09 May 22 07:13 BST (UK) »
Who were the informants & as it seems so far, Mary Helen may not have been brought up by her mother i.e. the informants may not have known the connection

a death registration in Australia has provision for recording the children OF A UNION.

This excludes children who were not product of the union which the deceased person was partner in at death.

Mary ANDREWS was not product  of her fathers marriage at his death not part her mother's at her death.

Regardless of how well the she was known.  It is Not a cover up.

Sue

Thanks Sue,

I was trying to work out why no mention of Mary on the DCs but I was unaware of the full/actual requirements, very informative indeed!

Annie



South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Victorian birth cert 1903 stamped CANCELLED
« Reply #98 on: Monday 09 May 22 08:21 BST (UK) »
BDM VIC death

17118/1937 LARSEN Henrietta Maria
parents Ellen HENNESSY / SCALES John
@  Tallangatta     77y

18929/1938 LARSEN Peter
parents Maria WIND / LARSEN Christian
@ Tallangatta       79y


Using PROV website you can find Probate file for Henrietta and for Peter.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates

There were no children of the marriage, and I am not seeing children born to Peter before their marriage.

It might be interesting to see who is named as beneficiary. Henrietta must have known about daughter Mary Helen's singing success, and Mary Helen's children.

When Peter dies there is someone around with knowledge of his origins.



* It would be helpful to see what images you have with school uniform.