Roberts - Lancashire early 1800s

[AusFamily]

Now that there have been newly released Catholic records on FindMyPast, and more English Catholic records are coming to light, I was hoping this may be able to be more easily solved.

Looking for official birth records for:
John Roberts (b Lancs ca 1809)
Mary Dorothy Helm (b Preston ca 1813-1819)
John & Mary’s marriage details (most likely Lancs.)
birth records for:
Eliza Roberts (b Manchester ca 1834)
Anne Roberts (b Manchester ca 1835)


Looking for details of a John Roberts b. Flowery Field (now greater Manchester) ca 1809
He is not easily findable in the records as he was Catholic, and no obvious entry comes up in FindMyPast.
He gives his birthplace as “Flowry Field” on his daughter Emma’s French birth entry
https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819

This same birth entry also gives her mother’s place of birth as Preston, and gives her maiden name as “Dorothy Helm.” Emma was their 2nd child born in France, after Jean Louie Antoine Emile in 1840


John married a Mary Dorothy Helm, most likely of Preston ca 1827-34, most likely in Lancs. They later moved to France, as artisans, after the birth of two daughters, Eliza & Anne, and eventually set up a porcelain manufacturing business.


Mary Dorothy Helm can likely be found in Dunn’s Catholic census of Preston 1820, aged (at least, I think this is her - ref 5650, aged 7, Paradise Street - original ref 93092), where she appears as Dorothy Helm. No Mary Helm of the correct age appears in the census.
she appears in the 1871 England census, living with daughter Anna (Anne) and gives her place of birth as Preston Lancashire, age 52.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_272_276-0228

She appears as Mary Dorothy Helm in the later Lyon, France records: and variations on Marie-Doruthe Helm or Helms


I have her maiden name as Helm, as the family later moved to Lyon in France and set up shop as porcelain makers, and her maiden name is given there on their children’s birth certificates. They had a number of children in France, which reference the mother’s maiden name as Helm or Helms. This is also where I got the father’s place of birth from.


Finding a marriage record for Mary Dorothy & John has proven very difficult, as they were Catholic in a time when Catholicism were still frowned upon in England to some extent.


Their first child appears to have been Eliza, who gives her birthplace as Manchester in the 1881 census, living with sister here known as “Emma” (Anne - who gives her age as 45). Approx year of birth 1833-4 - cannot find definite birth details for her
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/LNDRG11_242_246-0700


Their second child was Anne, who also gives her birthplace as Manchester in the 1881 census, (as above),  approx year of birth 1834-5 - cannot find definite birth details for her either - she married Henry Adams in Poplar, London in 1853 in a Catholic Church; Appear in 1871 census as Anna Adams living in Islington - gives her place of birth as “Burslem” (which I doubt is true)
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_272_276-0228
; she died in Sydney, Australia, in 1900, known as Anna Adams (parents John & Mary) her grave gives her approx year of birth as 1835. Buried in the Catholic section of Woronora Cemetery, Sydney.

All following children to Robert & Mary-Dorothy were born in Lyon. I have their details from the Lyon archives (via ancestry).

There are a Marie & Jean Roberts listed in the 1836 Lyon census with a child Anne aged 2, Rue de Marbresa, whether this is co-incidence, I do not know. Father’s Occupation: Guinpiere
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/61796/images/lyo183613_V01_00052

Definitely in the 1851 census, Jean Roberts is listed as living in Rue De Landine, age 45, nationality: Anglais; occupation: porcelainier.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/61796/images/lyo185199_V02_00454

Ann was not listed as living with them by this stage, however Eliza is listed as living with them, age 17, “Anglaise” ; mother Marie Robert (née Helm - as given on the census form) age 36, “Anglaise”


The family must have sought better opportunities in a Catholic country to pursue their trade without public hostility or prejudice. Lyon had been the thriving centre of artisan trades in the late 1700s, one of the greatest in Europe, I have read.


So, to recap:
Looking for official birth records for:
John Roberts (b Lancs ca 1809)
Mary Dorothy Helm (b Preston ca 1813-1819)
John & Mary’s marriage details (most likely Lancs.)
birth records for:
Eliza Roberts (b Manchester ca 1834)
Anne Roberts (b Manchester ca 1835)


more background here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857129.0

[Maiden Stone]

Now that there have been newly released Catholic records on FindMyPast, and more English Catholic records are coming to light, I was hoping this may be able to be more easily solved.

Looking for official birth records for:
John Roberts (b Lancs ca 1809)
Mary Dorothy Helm (b Preston ca 1813-1819)
John & Mary’s marriage details (most likely Lancs.)
birth records for:
Eliza Roberts (b Manchester ca 1834)
Anne Roberts (b Manchester ca 1835)


John married a Mary Dorothy Helm, most likely of Preston ca 1827-34, most likely in Lancs.


Finding a marriage record for Mary Dorothy & John has proven very difficult, as they were Catholic in a time when Catholicism were still frowned upon in England to some extent.

Birth registrations began in England in 1837.
Marriage of John Roberts to Mary Dorothy Helm would have been in an Anglican church if it happened in England prior to 1837.

Which newly released Catholic records on FiMP? Any for Lancashire?
There have been some R.C. register transcription added to Lancashire Online Parish Clerks this year but probably too late for those Roberts & Helms.

[Maiden Stone]

Lancashire Archives Church Registers Guide - Roman Catholic church registers. Alphabetical order by place.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67392/P.pdf
Preston St. Mary Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-20; Marriages 1769-1803 & 1813-20
Preston St. Wilfrid Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-98; Marriages 1769-1803; 1813-1829; 1856-99
Also burial registers.
St. Wilfrid replaced St. Mary. The Catholic population increased greatly due to expansion of Preston. St. Mary was reopened as a chapel-of-ease or an overspill chapel to St. Wilfrid.
St. Ignatius was the next Catholic church to open in Preston in 1836.
St. Ignatius registers: Christenings 1836-1942; Marriages 1837-1930. Also burial registers.
St. Augustine of Canterbury was next R.C. church to open. Registers from 1840.

[Maiden Stone]

Now that there have been newly released Catholic records on FindMyPast,

Which newly released Catholic records on FiMP? Any for Lancashire?

I've found then under "What's New" tab for 22nd April. I'd missed the update. Several baptisms for my families up to around 1920.    Some omissions though.
I went through the parish list. Some Manchester parishes are included. I found a Manchester baptism 1825 for a nephew of my 3xGGF + for another nephew in Liverpool. No baptisms for my GGF's children. He may have returned to Preston before they were born. No Preston registers on the list.

[Maiden Stone]

Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society. Website is now called "Manchester Ancestors".
https://mlfhs.uk
Publications include R.C. register transcriptions.
The old M&LFHS website had a Catholic registers database. It had a list of churches with years of operation + dates of registers.

[heatherjulie]

There is a Flowery Field in Hyde, Cheshire- not far from Manchester

There is a St Peter's RC Church in Stalybridge built 1838

St Pauls RC church Newton, Hyde opened in 1848

St Mary's RC Church Dukinfield first church built in 1825

[AusFamily]

Lancashire Archives Church Registers Guide - Roman Catholic church registers. Alphabetical order by place.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67392/P.pdf
Preston St. Mary Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-20; Marriages 1769-1803 & 1813-20
Preston St. Wilfrid Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-98; Marriages 1769-1803; 1813-1829; 1856-99
Also burial registers.
St. Wilfrid replaced St. Mary. The Catholic population increased greatly due to expansion of Preston. St. Mary was reopened as a chapel-of-ease or an overspill chapel to St. Wilfrid.
St. Ignatius was the next Catholic church to open in Preston in 1836.
St. Ignatius registers: Christenings 1836-1942; Marriages 1837-1930. Also burial registers.
St. Augustine of Canterbury was next R.C. church to open. Registers from 1840.

Thanks for this. As I'm in Australia, I'm not able to easily access material kept on microfilm in the Lancashire archives. I guess it's not online anywhere?

[Maiden Stone]

Looking for details of a John Roberts b. Flowery Field (now greater Manchester) ca 1809


      the family later moved to Lyon in France and set up shop as porcelain makers


Finding a marriage record for Mary Dorothy & John has proven very difficult, as they were Catholic in a time when Catholicism were still frowned upon in England to some extent.


Their second child was Anne, who also gives her birthplace as Manchester in the 1881 census, (as above),  approx year of birth 1834-5 - cannot find definite birth details for her either - she married Henry Adams in Poplar, London in 1853 in a Catholic Church; Appear in 1871 census as Anna Adams living in Islington - gives her place of birth as “Burslem” (which I doubt is true)

All following children to Robert & Mary-Dorothy were born in Lyon. I have their details from the Lyon archives.

Definitely in the 1851 census, Jean Roberts is listed as living in Rue De Landine, age 45, nationality: Anglais; occupation: porcelainier.


The family must have sought better opportunities in a Catholic country to pursue their trade without public hostility or prejudice. Lyon had been the thriving centre of artisan trades in the late 1700s, one of the greatest in Europe, I have read.


more background here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857129.0

There's information about Flowery Field in reply 41 on page 5 of AusFamily's previous thread.

Anna stating her birthplace as Burslem in a later census suggests to me that it was where she lived in early childhood. Burslem, "the mother of the Staffordshire Potteries" fits with her father's porcelain occupation.
Have you looked for a Roberts & Helm marriage in Staffordshire or thereabouts? If they married before 1837 it would have been C. of E.

The Roberts family's move to France was most probably connected to work. I doubt religion was an issue. Catholics in England were equal citizens for all practical purposes before the Roberts family moved to France. Catholics were in the English upper and middle classes and in the professions. Moreover, Catholics were a sizeable minority in Lancashire. They also had a long history in parts of the English Midlands.
It seems to me that John Roberts moved around England and then to France because of his occupation.       

[Maiden Stone]

Lancashire Archives Church Registers Guide - Roman Catholic church registers. Alphabetical order by place.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67392/P.pdf
Preston St. Mary Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-20; Marriages 1769-1803 & 1813-20
Preston St. Wilfrid Christenings 1768-1803 & 1813-98; Marriages 1769-1803; 1813-1829; 1856-99
Also burial registers.
St. Wilfrid replaced St. Mary. The Catholic population increased greatly due to expansion of Preston. St. Mary was reopened as a chapel-of-ease or an overspill chapel to St. Wilfrid.
St. Ignatius was the next Catholic church to open in Preston in 1836.
St. Ignatius registers: Christenings 1836-1942; Marriages 1837-1930. Also burial registers.
St. Augustine of Canterbury was next R.C. church to open. Registers from 1840.

Thanks for this. As I'm in Australia, I'm not able to easily access material kept on microfilm in the Lancashire archives. I guess it's not online anywhere?

Not Preston as far as I know, except for St. Wilfrid burials, done by a volunteer, which I think I told you about on your other thread. The volunteer used to work at Lancashire Archives.
Lancashire Family History & Heraldry Society will know if there's anything else. Jim Lancaster, a  member of LFH&HS + of the Catholic Family History Society & expert on Catholic family history, who kept people up-to date with new releases died last year. He occasionally posted on RootsChat as Lancaster Jim.