John Murray

[Forfarian]

You're quite right that only DNA can ever solve this one - and if JM was not the father of RCM, it would only prove that we are looking for the wrong person, not tell us who the right person was.

But...DNA could lead to the potential father through matching DNA links!

Annie

Yes, possibly.

[Rosinish]

Murielle,

Which company did your husband test with?

There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites?

Have any of your children taken a DNA test?

This should help in filtering the paternal side.

What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches?

I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.

It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free!

Annie

[muriellecampbell]

Is this the couple you refer to?

JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
birth registered 1898 St Ninians


ANNIE MELVILLE CAMPBELL
birth registered 1898 Falkirk

This John Campbell Murray was determined not to be the right person.

Colin

[muriellecampbell]

Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.

John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.

You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.

There is also a possible death for this John on SP:

Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand.  Do you have this information?

JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling

Determined not to be the right John Murray.
Monica

A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out.  There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer.  This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time.  He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930.  Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for?  Thank you anyone for the help.

This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).

No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:

John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland

Address:118 Baker St, Stirling

Monica

Determined not to be the right John Murray.

[muriellecampbell]

Murielle,

Which company did your husband test with?

There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites?

Have any of your children taken a DNA test? ErrorSPAM REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.] No.[/color]

This should help in filtering the paternal side.

What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches?

I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.

It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free!

Annie

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.

Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.

Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.

See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/

Monica

  Thank you Monica.

Murielle,

Which company did your husband test with? Ancestry DNA

There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites?  I have uploaded our Ancestry DNA raw data with My Heritage, and Gedmatch.com
ErrorSPAM REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.]No[/color]

This should help in filtering the paternal side.

What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches?  My husband's scottish closest matches are 1.  Dianne Veach (known to us).  She has done her Ancestry DNA.  Results 196 cm - 4 segments on the Campbell line. She is a 3rd cousin to my husband John Murray Campbell. She does not know John Murray Snr. 2.  Maurice Campbell Results 120 cm 2% Shared DNA.  He is 2nd-3rd cousin on the Campbell line.  3. Gord McMurran 98 cm in 4 segments.  According to Ancestry he is 2nd cousin once removed to my husband on the Campbell line.  Gord's mother was a Campbell.  4.  Sandy Goodsite58 Results 47 cm 4th-6th cousin less than 1% shared DNA with my husband.  Any more would be all distant cousins. 

I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.

It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free! I agree but I want to make sure that the certificate I purchase are indeed related to us.

Annie

I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).

Ruth

I believe that I verified that it was Robert Murray Campbell that was married to Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale.

[Rosinish]

What you now need to do is, compare all your 'known' matches with both yours & their shared' matches & whittle them down.

This can be done by using these (both are very helpful)...

https://www.danaleeds.com/the-leeds-method/
&
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

which should help in identifying whether your F-i-L was definitely descended from the Murray line or not & as more people test, it may lead you to the 'biological' father who may/may not be a Murray.

Annie

[muriellecampbell]

What you now need to do is, compare all your 'known' matches with both yours & their shared' matches & whittle them down.

This can be done by using these (both are very helpful)...

https://www.danaleeds.com/the-leeds-method/
&
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

which should help in identifying whether your F-i-L was definitely descended from the Murray line or not & as more people test, it may lead you to the 'biological' father who may/may not be a Murray.

Annie

Thank you so much Annie    I wrote down the two sites and plan to start using them very soon.  Wish me Luck!!! 

[Rosinish]

Good luck Murielle as it seems the only way to be in any way sure or not.

It would be best you have any of your children do tests which makes it easier too.

Annie

[muriellecampbell]

Good luck Murielle as it seems the only way to be in any way sure or not.

It would be best you have any of your children do tests which makes it easier too.

Annie

  I actually did not think about having our children do the test.  I knew that it would be important for my husband and I.  This is a great suggestion from Annie and your team.  Thank you for the suggestion.