HUMPHRIES Elizabeth Sarah (or Sophia?) Brighton 1856/7/8?

[Little Nell]

  Sorry, TimCSS, I am not persuaded that you have joined the correct dots. 

In Scotland it is quite common for children to be given surnames of a grandmother, grandfather or other relative from previous generations as a middle name even when the parents are married.  It can provide useful clues for ancestor hunting. 

The lodging house in Oriental Place was obviously a very respectable type of place.  In fact, newspapers carried announcements of who had arrived to stay there or depart. 

I think jon65 has unearthed some good information which should be given consideration.  Elizabeth may well have been recorded as Eliza (my own great great grandmother was).  The coincidence of the name Walesby/Whalesby is difficult to ignore.

Your latest information about Elizabeth Sophia Humphries marriage - what was her father's name and occupation on the certificate, please?  Is she the Elizabeth Humphreys, servant at Forest View, Southampton in 1871?  She was born in Lambeth.

Nell

Added
Why - if John Laing left John Laing Humphries well provided for in his will - did he not provide for Elizabeth in some way?  Any ideas?

[Annette7]

Certainly a convoluted account.

The only thing I doubt is the 1851 census school in Brighton.   I simply cannot believe that the E.A. (and it's definitely an 'A') Humphrey 14 preceded by G. Humphrey 16, both born Southampton, is your Elizabeth Humphries born in Lambeth.

Annette

[jonw65]

Details from birth certificate of John Laing HUMPHRIES;
Mother's Name, Elizabeth Sarah Humphries.
We presume that John Laing did not know Elizabeth's second name or was confused at the time he registered the birth.
Or maybe the name Sarah was used to confuse other people including us!

I am still don't understand where you got the middle name Sophia from.
How/why did you connect John's mother to Elizabeth Sophia b 1832 Lambeth, daughter of John Terry Humphries?

[jonw65]

After John Terry Humphries the publican died his wife went to Southampton.

But she didn't. As we have seen, she remarried to Barnabas Phillips, and remained living in Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth.
She died there.
June 1861 Lambeth 1d 238
Phillips, Sarah Terry       
Age 69

Barnabas Phillips remarried in 1863, and he died at 70 Vauxhall Walk in 1888. Left a will.

[TimCSS]

Good morning to each and all.
I can see you all think I am barking up the wrong tree here. After about twenty years trying to trace this woman I am sure you do understand the frustration and 'clutching at straws'. This is why at the suggestion of another genealogist I up-dated my enquiry on here. So do bear with me.
I will start with the 1872 marriage cert for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries at Southampton in 1872 wherein her name is given as above and father's name as John Terry Humphries, deceased, occupation Publican. So not much doubt that she IS the Elizabeth Sophia born Lambeth in 1832 although age given (35) is incorrect. I received some information on Friday that both she and an elder brother were placed in the Licensed Victuallers School at Kennington Lane South London.
Report in the Morning Advertiser 30th August 1841.
" Elizabeth Sophia Humphries 8-3/4 (years) father dead, Mother takes in needlework, is much distressed, is in bad health, has another child to support, and one in the School; No. 52 Vauxhall-walk". (Address of the Queens Head public house)
From further info on Friday it seems that Mr & Mrs Humphries of the Queens Head had subscribed one guinea each per year to this organisation for a good number of years.
I am presuming that Elizabeth then went to the school in Brighton run by the Misses Wallace at Belvedere Montpelier Road. The writing and mis-spellings on that Census do nothing to advance these enquiries. The other Humphreys shown was not related. I think I did trace her family.
Martha Whalesby / Walesby living with Eliza in 1861 could be her Aunt. Eliza / Elizabeth's mother was a Whalesby.
I have the information on Sarah Whalesby's / Humphries' second marriage to Barnabus Phillips.
There was another Southampton connection there somewhere which I can't find at the moment. My file on all this is about two inches thick!
I also do not understand why Elizabeth Humphries is not mentioned in John Laing's Will. He left the (his) child very well provided for. Perhaps he had made an earlier settlement on her. These things were often done 'under the carpet' in those days. By then he was married to Marian SARAH Turrell (1866) Maybe hence the confusion over the middle names. (Conjecture)
I am grateful to all for suggestions and further information. Perhaps we shall never find the correct Elizabeth Humphries? TCS

[wivenhoe]

"I will start with the 1872 marriage cert for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries at Southampton in 1872 "

Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate.....everything please....every name, age, occupation, address, date....name of church ................everything.

Can you indicate if bride / groom / witnesses sign their names.

[TimCSS]

Herewith as requested: Marriage details for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries;

1872. Marriage solemnised at the Register Office in the District of Southampton in the County of the same name.
No.112.  When Married: Third April 1872.
 
Name & Surname: George GRAY. Age: 46 years. Condition: Bachelor. Rank or Profession: Laborer. Residence at the time of Marriage: John Street, Kingsland. Father's Name and Surname: John Gray (deceased). Rank or Profession of Father: Laborer.

Elizabeth Sophia Humphries. Age: 35 years. Condition: Spinster. Rank or Profession:  - . Residence at the time of Marriage: Orchard Street. Father's Name and Surname: John Terry Humphries, (deceased). Rank or profession of Father: Publican.

Married at the Register Office............by Certificate before me, John Brice: Registrar. John A. Hunt Sup td. Reg.

This Marriage was solemnised between us, George Gray, .... Elizabeth Sophia Humphries.
In the Presence of us, X The mark of Mary Ann Tree. ... Joseph Gailor.

NB: 'Laborer is 'as spelt'.

[Little Nell]

Thank you for the explanations.

Fact 1: Elizabeth Sophia Humphries daughter of John Terry Humphries married George Gray in 1872 as a single woman.  Her age was at odds with her known baptism date.

Fact 2: John Laing registered the birth of John Laing Humphries, son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries in 1857.  No father named.

Fact 3: John Humphries son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries was baptised in March 1858.  No father named.  Elizabeth definitely still alive at this point and presumably would have given her name to the officiating minister.  So unless he made a mistake, she was Elizabeth Sarah.

Fact 4: John Laing provided for John Laing Humphries, paid for his education (according to his will).

If John Laing made an earlier settlement on Elizabeth 'under the carpet' then why would he fairly openly acknowledge John Humphries' existence and pay for his education?

At the moment there is absolutely nothing to connect Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, mother of John Humphries b 1857, to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries who married in 1872.  I think they are probably two different people. 

Nell

[TimCSS]

 I am inclined to agree with what you say. HOWEVER we still have the Brighton and Southampton connections with someone of the same or similar name/s. The mystery continues. I will re-read my copious notes (going back about twenty years!) when I have an hour or more to spare.