Help please with untangling the Settlement and Removal records for John Tann.

[Duodecem]

The John Tann in question was baptised in New Buckenham in 1735, the eldest son of John Tann and Jane Howlby and grandson of Ralph Tann, a miller, so an established family in the village.
On 24th July 1758 John married Anne Risebrooke of Norwich in St Peter of Mancroft, Norwich and in October that year they baptised a daughter Elizabeth, another daughter Martha was baptised in 1760 and a son, John in 1766.
I was browsing the Norfolk Record Office Online Catalogue and found the following records which seem to refer to John and his family:-
1) Reference codeNCR 20e/18 page 329
Title John Tann, pauper Date(s) 28 Jul 1758 (Creation)
2) Reference cod eNCR 20e/18 page 329
Title John Tann, pauper Date(s  )11 Dec 1758 (Creation)
Both have  New Buckenham as the parish of settlement.

3) Reference codePD 540/112/61
Title Settlement certificate: John Tann , Ann his wife and Elizabeth their daughter
Date(s) 15 Dec 1758 (Creation)
Certifying Parish: New Buckenham. Parish of residence: St Peter Mancroft, Norwich.

And finally-
4) Reference code PD 540/114/19
Title Removal order: Ann Tann, wife of John Tann, and John their son
Date(s)  23 Oct 1776 (Creation)
Scope and content Removed from St Paul, Norwich to New Buckenham.

I haven't found a record for the death of  John Tann.
Anne died in New Buckenham in 1788, her son John married, lived and died in Old Buckenham, an agricultural labourer according to the 1841 census.

I'm a bit confused by these records. Presumably John was a pauper but allowed to settle in Norwich, then for some reason his wife and 10 year old son were removed to New Buckenham. I haven't found a removal order for John, but I presume he was alive in 1776, since Anne is described as his wife not his widow.
 If anyone can help shed any further light on this and tell me whether my presumptions are correct of not, I would be very grateful.

 

[amondg]

John Tann came to Norwich for work married Anne Risebrooke 1758 all is good re: settlement certificate, but once he became dependent upon parish relief  he and his family are removed from Norwich and back to the settlement of HIS origin, Ann as his wife and his children become the problem of New Buckenham but she may not have been born there.

John may have left prior to 1776 in search of work which is why only his wife and children are mentioned in the removal order.

[amondg]

NFHS transcription

The burial of Ann Tann 30 December 1788 describes her as Widow.

[Duodecem]

Thank you amongd, I hadn't noticed that Anne was a widow, so presumably John died between 1776 and 1788.
I'm still a bit confused. 
John Tann was married on 24th July 1758,  registered as a pauper on 28 Jul 1758, and again on 11th December 1758. Here are the links: https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/john-tann-pauper-2
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/john-tann-pauper-3
and the settlement certificate was 15th December 1758.
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/settlement-certificate-john-tann-ann-his-wife-and-elizabeth-their-daughter

So, if he was a pauper, on 11th December, it seems surprising he was granted a settlement certificate on 15th December. Maybe I misunderstand the system but I thought someone was only granted a settlement certificate outside their home parish if they had work and could support themselves.
Could this be achieved in 4 days?

[amondg]

I see your point.

[goldie61]

Looking at the settlement in Dec 1758, it says this record comes from the Parish Records of New Buckenham, and that the certifying parish is New Buckingham.
John and Anne and the children are resident in the parish of St Peter Mancroft, Norwich at this time.

Surely if they were getting a settlement certificate to live in Norwich, it have come from the Norwich parish, not the New Buckenham parish.

The 'physical characteristics' section do say that the document in 'badly torn', and 'one section is missing'.

Similarly, the removal order in 1776 was created by the New Buckenham Overseers of the Poor, presumably at the request of the Norwich authorities, so they could be returned to New Buckenham.

Have you seen the actual documents relating to John and Anne?
It might be well worth your while to get copies.
All these documents you quote have been indexed by NRO volunteers - not disparaging them at all, I'm sure they do a fantastic job, but if it was me, I would really like to see the originals.

There are a couple of more entries for Anne Tadd.
In July 1765, she is entered in the Norwich 'Registers of paupers and vagrants' as 'disorderly'.
Her place of settlement is New Buckenham, so presumably they sent her back there, (again!)
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/ann-tann-disorderly

And in Aug 1787, she is again in the Norwich register of paupers and vagrants as a 'vagrant'.
Once again her place of settlement is New Buckenham.
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/ann-tann-vagrant

It sounds as if they kept trying to go and live in Norwich, but kept getting sent back to New Buckenham, as they had settlement there, and Norwich were not happy to spend their Poor Rates on helping them.
What a sad life.


I suspect you have seen the interesting little snippet about Ralph Tadd in the Norfolk catalogue.
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/inventories-of-poor-peoples-household-goods-and-agreements-for-loans

[Duodecem]

Hello goldie, yes I did see the reference to Ralph Tann, who was John Tann's grandfather. I did wonder whether he lost his money and the mill because he couldn't repay the loan.
Ralph's eldest son, John (1704-1751), was the father of the John Tann(1735-?, also the eldest son)who was the pauper subject of the various settlement and removal orders.
Presumably if there had been a mill, both Johns, son and grandson respectively, would have inherited it.
 As for Anne Tann, nee Riseborough, that's even more puzzling. Either there was more than one Anne Tann or she led a sad and chaotic life.
In chronological order:
Ann Tann, disorderly
NCR 20e/18 page 332 Item 17 Jul 1765
Ann Tann, pauper
NCR 20e/18 page 358 Item 23 Oct 1776
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 358 Item 23 Dec 1776
Ann Tann, vagrant
 NCR 20e/18 page 360 Item 10 Jun 1782
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 361 Item 27 Jun 1785
Ann Tann, vagrant
 NCR 20e/18 page 362 Item 6 Apr 1786
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 291 Item 8 Aug 1787
Before dying in 1788 at the age of 57.