Looking for Martha, born around 1813-1815 in Llantarnam

[Deirdre784]

Hi, slightly unusual puzzle here and i'd be grateful for any suggestions please.

I'm looking for a Martha, said to be born around 1813-1815 in Llantarnam on all censuses from 1851 to 1891.

In 1851 she is found in Usk [HO107/2450/ 171 p70] married to a Joseph Smith, living in 'Open Tent, Ponts and Pit Common, Usk'. Elizabeth Weaver, relative, is with them as is Eleanor Martha Smith aged 11 months, listed as daughter of Joseph and Martha - but Elizabeth is her mother (registered as Eleanor Martha Weaver, mother '-'). No marriage found of a Joseph Smith to a Martha before 1851.

The following census in 1861 - in Eglwysilan, near Pontypridd - also has Joseph, Martha and Elizabeth (a lodger), plus children Mary Ann, Harriet and Joseph - all listed as Smith but registered as a mix of Weaver or Smith.

In 1871 Martha is no longer with them, though i can't find her elsewhere, but in 1881 she is shown as married, in 1891 as widowed (Joseph died in 1890) and when she died in 1893 she is recorded as the widow of Joseph, registered by Harriet, niece, one of Joseph and Elizabeth's daughters.

In 1891 Elizabeth is Elizabeth Smith, widow, though she died as Elizabeth Weaver, no mention of Joseph.

It turns out that all 8 children belong to Joseph and Elizabeth (so no records on the GRO to help). While Martha is not the direct line ancestor of the family i'm researching, I'd like to find her if possible, but am stuck in tracing her before 1851.

Thanks for reading

Edited to add: Joseph was born in Belper, Derbyshire, around 1811. He was a labourer in 1851, but a hawker or assistant horse dealer in other censuses. And a huckster on his death certificate. The family also travelled quite a bit. Given the Smith surname, his occupations and his travels (and the 1851 'open 'tent' abode), does this suggest a gypsy family, or connections?

[Talacharn]

You need to read this thread, though only the initial post.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=461953.msg3226795#msg3226795
Posted by a relative, it says Elizabeth was born in Ludlow.
The only baptism I can find in Ludlow is 1803.

Travellers did not always tell the truth, especially regarding their age, with some 10 or 20 years out, or where they were born. In moving to Wales, they could adopt a more ‘Welsh’ name to blend in with the locals. Often they said they were born within Wales, or even a few miles down the road. When registration was required, baptism, registration and census birth could be very different places. In not trusting authority, they respected the church, so tended to baptise, even when there was registration. There were also certain churches/chapels they liked, so may wait years to record a birth. One of mine waited 4 years.

This is the only Joseph Smith I could find in Belper.
Joseph Smith b. 11 Dec 1804
Christening: 1806 . Belper, Derbyshire
Parents: Joseph and Elenor Smith

They may not have married. I cannot find any trace, which is often the case with travellers. Of those I have traced, assuming they married before having children, some married after their children had been born, others never married, instead they jumped over the broom.

[Deirdre784]

Thanks Talacharn, same family, and confirms my suspicions of a gypsy family. I have that baptism of Joseph flagged as possible, and also Elizabeth Weaver who appears to have been baptised as Elizabeth Tipton on the same day as her mother married William Weaver. I was hoping to find Joseph’s marriage to Martha to give father’s names for more detail, but it is proving difficult (as you say, maybe they didn’t)

[Talacharn]

Before reading the post by WELSHNEV, I did think of a boat connection, or selling to boat people. A Huckster was a trader, more of provisions than a Hawker and considered a lower class of traveller. There was snobbery within traveller circles. Tipton in Staffordshire was a large traveller area, especially with boatmen. Could Tipton be an alias? About 5 miles away there is Smethwick and at that time, home of the Black Patch, a large community of travellers especially the Smith clan.

[Deirdre784]

Thanks Talacharn, interesting info. Not had any gypsy experience before so all new to me.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Wondering if she's the Martha Smith b c1817 in Hay who's in Giller St, Merthyr in 1871? She says she's a widow, but she's in the same area (Heolywermwod) as 1881 and 1891 and she's a greengrocer

Reference is piece    5396, folio 10, page 15

[Deirdre784]

Thanks Mabel, looks a good possibility. Just strange as she was recorded as born in Llantarnam in 1851, 61, 81 and 91 and she said she was married in 81 and widowed in 91 (which is right). But it’s about right age, location and occupation, and the ‘family’ was in Hay at various times. Will add to tree as a possible. Thanks 🌺

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Maybe saying she was widowed was better socially if she and Joseph weren;t together (it does seem an "interesting" household set up!)

[Deirdre784]

Very strange set up! Luckily for me (i’m only researching this for a friend) a tree on ancestry has all 8 children’s birth certificates plus the deaths of Joseph, Elizabeth and Martha 😀