Looking for Martha, born around 1813-1815 in Llantarnam

[Talacharn]

1841 Census: High Street . St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Martha Smith . 27 (c.1814) . Birthplace: Monmouthshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio 751/30 . Page 5
There is a strange group of people living there, could it be an early workhouse/hospital?

[Deirdre784]

Saw that this afternoon but didn’t know what to make of it (the 1841 often poses more questions than it answers, and this does look strange). And i wasn’t expecting Martha to be Smith if she wasn’t with Joseph

[Talacharn]

I don’t know how to quote, but you said ‘In 1851 she is found in Usk [HO107/2450/ 171 p70] married to a Joseph Smith, living in 'Open Tent, Ponts and Pit Common, Usk'.’ St Woollos is on the Usk and age 27, she would probably be married. Travellers tended to marry young. In 1841, I thought, maybe giving birth, if part of a supportive environment. The parochial church of St. Woollos, occupies a situation on Stow Hill, Newport. Woollaston House Workhouse, at the top of Stow Hill was built in 1837-1838. I think it might be the early workhouse before it was extended. When did she marry?

[Talacharn]

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3881068/3881073/41/
William Griffiths, 36, labourer, was charged with unlawfully and indecently assaulting Elizabeth Weaver, at Hay,…
…Elizabeth Weaver stated she lived with a man named Joseph Smith, a greengrocer, and had done so for 21 years, having had seven children by him…
The Brecon County Times Neath Gazette and General… . 23rd October 1869 . News . p.5
It seems to confirm they were not married, but together from 1848.

[Deirdre784]

This is all very interesting, thanks Talacharn. The first child Eleanor Martha was born in 1850 which supports Elizabeth’s 21 years with Joseph though he’s not named on the birth certificate. I’ve now found a possible death for her too, an Ellen Martha Weaver aged 1 in Tewksbury in Jun-Sep 1851.

I hadn’t thought of them being travellers before starting this post, but given their ages, and the 1841, maybe Joseph and Martha were married by then, maybe Martha lost a baby, or more, so Elizabeth was added to the family group. It does seem to make sense.

[Deirdre784]

Just had another look at that 1841 and Elizabeth Weaver is there too, though transcribed as Weare by ancestry. Age 17, not born in county.

[Talacharn]

I cannot see the original and Family Search had not transcribed it as Weaver. It does make me think they were in a form of hospital. You were allowed one person to stay with you and Joseph would be working. It was known for travellers to have two ‘wives’ at the same time.

I did think that Elizabeth could be younger than Joseph. Age 17 in 1841 takes her back to 1823/4. WELSHNEV lists 8 children, with the last one born in 1871 when she would be 48. They were together from 1848 with the first child born in 1851, age 27, which seem a little late for travellers.

[Deirdre784]

Here’s a snip…. So do you think they may not be travellers then (the children have normal names rather than the ones i would have associated as traveller ones, and they appear to be living in houses after 1851). 

[Talacharn]

Thanks for the image. There are different types of traveller. In the early days, he may have travelled more, but it seems they had a base from where he was a Hawker selling fruit and veg. Being a Labourer is a common occupation for travellers. When the census was taken, many had stopped for the winter, so looked for other jobs. In the industrial areas of South Wales many worked in the Tin industry. It looks like his patch was smaller and easier as he aged. A newspaper article says he was visiting other villages and towns like Talgarth. As for the names; some travellers, especially the hard-core gipsies often used distinctive names, but many moved to more traditional ones. If living in a community, some names blended in better than others. My great-grandfather was a fish-hawker with his family, but based from a house and all had ‘normal’ names.

I have been looking for a marriage.

Found on FreeReg:
St Alkmund Parish Register Duffield Derbyshire . 705
Marriage: 30 Sep 1833
Joseph Smith widower . Duffield . Martha Holland widow . Duffield
Witnesses: George Skerritt . Peter Sowter
Notes: Groom and Bride signed X

Found on FamilySearch:
Joseph Smith widowed . Martha Holmes widowed
Marriage: 30 Sep 1833
Duffield, Duffield, Derbyshire

It is the same marriage with Martha as Holland and Holmes.
Smith, Holland and Skerritt are traveller names, but the image says it is Holmes, of which I have informed FreeReg. Duffield is now named alongside Belper.

In being married before, this is a contender:
All Saints Parish Register Trusley Derbyshire . 16
Marriage: 14 Jun 1831
Joseph Smith bachelor Allestree . Sarah Walker Trusley
Witnesses: Wm Walker . Anne Smith
Notes: With consent of all their friends

Allestree is about 5 miles SE of Duffield/Belper
Walker is also a traveller name.

Burial: Sarah Smith . 27 (c.1805)
6 Apr 1832 . Duffield, Derbyshire

It looks like, Joseph married Sarah in 1831, who died the year later. He then married Martha in 1833.
Is this the right Joseph? The dates and locations fit.