Author Topic: Fermanagh pronunciation  (Read 1204 times)

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 19:30 BST (UK) »
Lisa,

A final thought.

You mention being intrigued by your DNA mix. Leaving aside the fact that ethnicity testing isn’t all that accurate, your mix isn’t all that puzzling. I think that sort of result is pretty common. We aren’t all distinctly Irish, Scottish etc. As has been mentioned before there has always been massive migratory movement around the British Isles and such mixed results seem unsurprising.

If you asked most people around the world what song they most associate with Ireland, many would answer “Danny Boy,” or “The Londonderry Air” as it is also known. You can’t get anything more Irish than Danny Boy, can you? The history of the song and its tune is interesting and reveals a little about the complex links between Ireland, Scotland and also England.

Nobody knows for certain where the tune was composed or first played. Lost in the mists of time. It came to public notice in 1851 in Limavady, Co Londonderry/Derry when a Miss Jane Ross – a collector of old airs – heard it being played outside the Burns & Laird shipping office, on market day, by an itinerant fiddler. She got him to play it over a few times and took the tune down, and in due course it was published. The fiddler was “blind Jimmy McCurry” from Myroe who said that the tune was very old.  Reportedly when she departed he rubbed the coin she had given him against his lips and realised it was a florin (2 shillings) and not the penny that folk normally paid him.  He set off in pursuit and told her she had made a mistake. Jane refused to take the florin back and asked him to keep it as an appreciation of his music.  There’s a Blue Plaque on Main St, Limavady now to commemorate this “discovery” of the tune. But where did Jimmy learn it? We don’t know but possibly from his father who was another fiddle player and came from Portnahaven on the Scottish island of Islay. On a trip from Islay to Ballycastle (about 25 miles) the father had met a local lass there, married her and settled in Co Derry, where Jimmy was born in 1830. His father was descended from a long line of Scottish fiddlers, some of whom had been hereditary bards to the Lords of the Isles (whose headquarters was at Finlaggan on Islay).  So perhaps the tune is Scottish?

Where did the lyrics come from? Well there’s no real dispute about that. They were written by Fred Weatherly, an eminent lawyer from Manchester whose spare time passion was writing song lyrics.  His sister-in-law in San Francisco heard the tune being played by Colorado gold miners (believed to be from Co Derry). She loved it, thought of her brother-in-law in England, and in 1912 sent him the tune. He came up with the lyrics.  So the most famous Irish song in the world has lyrics written by an Englishman, and possibly has a Scottish tune.  Makes a very fine song for all that.

Some academics think the tune may actually be the Irish air “Aislean an Oigfear” which was first printed in a 1796 collection of Irish music. But that doesn’t suit my story at all, so I’ll ignore it.

Blind Jimmy McCurry was still around in the 1901 census. Here he is:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Myroe/Myroe_Level/1523675/

I mention this mostly because, as with DNA, whenever someone or, in this case, something like a tune, appears to be exclusively Irish, if you scratch the surface you sometimes find a much more complex mix below. Richer and more interesting perhaps?
Elwyn

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 19:46 BST (UK) »
A short explanation of Irish dialects
https://www.bitesize.irish/blog/irish-dialects/

A detailed study "Irish Language -Dialects- Connacht"
https://www.primidi.com/irish_language/dialects/connacht

I learned some basic standardised Irish. Using that I was able to have a simple conversation with a colleague from the Scottish Highlands, each of us speaking our version of Gaelic. I was also able to understand some written Scottish Gaelic.

Lisa, you mentioned "a British accent" (reply 10). Do you mean "Standard British English" sometimes called "Received Pronunciation" (RP)? It's spoken by a minority of the population of Britain.
https://britishaccentcourse.com/what-is-received-pronunciation-rp/




Cowban

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 22:40 BST (UK) »
Sorry for the delay in replying; we have a sick cat.

Elwyn, your use of Danny Boy is a great analogy. I’ve actually never cared for the song, perhaps because it made my mum sad (or it made her mother or father sad - I don’t remember why it saddened my mother), which in turn upset me. I’ve never taken the time to look up the history of the song. I think I will now appreciate it, with its intricate history.
 
Maiden Stone, thank you for sharing the links!  I will read them tonight.

Lisa, you mentioned "a British accent" (reply 10). Do you mean "Standard British English" sometimes called "Received Pronunciation" (RP)? It's spoken by a minority of the population of Britain.
https://britishaccentcourse.com/what-is-received-pronunciation-rp/

This should bring a chuckle to some of you  ;D but amongst people I know, “British accent” refers to everyone in England.  :-X   ;D  Our friends and family include those born in London, Essex, Midlands, etc. so I’ve “heard” there isn’t just one standardized way of speaking.  Perhaps most people generalize when referring to accents, be it English, American, Canadian, etc.?

Having said all of that, for the longest time, I thought Alanna could have been from Australia (she wasn’t, geez, did I feel dumb) as her accent was so different from ones I knew.  After I’ve read the link, I might be able to pinpoint what it was that made her accent stand out.

Thank you both for expanding my knowledge.  I think the links will be very interesting to read!
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Online Erato

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 23:04 BST (UK) »
"received pronunciation"

It's such a curious phrase.  What the heck does it actually mean?  Who received the pronunciation and, more importantly, who sent it?  It sounds like a manner of speech handed down by the almighty on the seventh day.
Wiltshire:  Banks, Taylor
Somerset:  Duddridge, Richards, Barnard, Pillinger
Gloucestershire:  Barnard, Marsh, Crossman
Bristol:  Banks, Duddridge, Barnard
Down:  Ennis, McGee
Wicklow:  Chapman, Pepper
Wigtownshire:  Logan, Conning
Wisconsin:  Ennis, Chapman, Logan, Ware
Maine:  Ware, Mitchell, Tarr, Davis


Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 23:07 BST (UK) »
Erato,  ;D
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 06 October 22 18:50 BST (UK) »
"received pronunciation"

It's such a curious phrase.  What the heck does it actually mean?  Who received the pronunciation and, more importantly, who sent it?  It sounds like a manner of speech handed down by the almighty on the seventh day.

A term coined by early 20th century linguists according to this.


 "Standard British English" sometimes called "Received Pronunciation" (RP)? It's spoken by a minority of the population of Britain.
https://britishaccentcourse.com/what-is-received-pronunciation-rp/

The article has a list of examples of actors who speak RP. Kenneth Branagh is on it. He was born in Belfast, son of a plumber & carpenter. The family moved to Reading, England when Kenneth was 9. He graduated from the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London (RADA) and was a member of the Royal Shakespeare Company (RSC) before setting up his own company. He played many Shakespeare (+other) roles on stage, TV, film and radio in his RP accent. His latest role was Boris Johnson. Last night BBC4 screened 2 plays from the "Billy" trilogy (1982 & 83), set in Belfast . It was Branagh's breakthrough role and a rare chance for him to use his original Belfast accent. 

The first announcer & newsreader to speak in a regional accent instead of RP on BBC Home Service radio was Wilfrid Pickles from Yorkshire in 1941  :o. I recently heard an archived recording of him reading a news bulletin during WW2 and I thought he sounded a bit "posh". His Yorkshire accent was more noticeable when he was host of a post-war entertainment show.

 
Cowban

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 06 October 22 23:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Maiden Stone.

I’ve been waiting to look at the links until I have “quiet time” and can focus. I enjoy doing lookups late at night as that doesn’t take too much concentration and takes my mind off of my problems.  However, when it comes to reading things, I really want to absorb everything.  I hope to be able to look at the links tonight and check out the people you mentioned.  Thank you, Lisa
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #25 on: Friday 07 October 22 17:23 BST (UK) »
"received pronunciation"

It's such a curious phrase.  What the heck does it actually mean?  Who received the pronunciation and, more importantly, who sent it?  It sounds like a manner of speech handed down by the almighty on the seventh day.

An audio equivalent of "tablets of stone" received on the mountain. God is an Englishman.  ;)
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #26 on: Friday 07 October 22 17:48 BST (UK) »

I’ve been waiting to look at the links until I have “quiet time” and can focus. I enjoy doing lookups late at night as that doesn’t take too much concentration and takes my mind off of my problems.  However, when it comes to reading things, I really want to absorb everything.  I hope to be able to look at the links tonight and check out the people you mentioned. 

Another you may be interested in is British Library Sounds Archive. Recordings in some collections can be listened to by anyone, some are restricted to EU residents.
https://sounds.bl.uk
A 10-year collaboration between the British Library and BBC Radio 4 "The Listening Project" has just ended. The catalogue of recordings lists them in alphabetical order by name of BBC radio station.
https://sounds.bl.uk/Oral-history/The-Listening-Project#
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cqx3b

Cowban