Author Topic: Fermanagh pronunciation  (Read 1201 times)

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 04 October 22 23:59 BST (UK) »
Ok, I am confused.

The pronunciation in the link mentioned earlier is different from how mum pronounced Fermanagh.  I found a similar link just prior to posting this topic and “my” link and manukarik’s link had the same pronunciation. 

But, after reading the latest comments it sounds like my mum was pronouncing it correctly?? (But she definitely didn’t say it like what was said in the links.)

One more attempt from me and I will just resort to avoiding the word if I am still in the dark.  ;D

Firm-in-awe I think best describes mum’s way.  That is not the Irish way, correct?

Apologies for making this so difficult.  It’s rather embarrassing.  :-[
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 00:35 BST (UK) »

…Overseas visitors and even some BBC newsreaders sometimes mistakenly emphasise the second syllable, and we can have a little chuckle at the results. Sorry.

Mum and I had our share of chuckling, as well.  Not in a snobbish way, just little giggles.  :)

I emphasise first syllable of surnames such as Horan and Moran. I've heard Americans place emphasis on 2nd syllable "MorANN".   

Years ago (in California), we knew a Moran. They didn’t emphasize the second syllable.  But, I think possibly, in California at least, the way someone pronounces their name is the way others will.  Since Mr. Moran said his name, everyone else used his pronunciation.

Years ago, we met an English lady.  She introduced herself as Alanna (ah-lawn-ah).  For several years we all used her pronunciation, as one would expect she would know how to say her own name.  Eventually, she asked why we called her that, then saying her name was (with a North American accent) a-lan-a.  We then realized that we were using a British accent.  ;)

I've heard Americans place emphasis on 2nd syllable "MorANN"

That could be because they are used to hearing the Spanish surname Morán which is stressed on the second syllable.

Great point, Erato.  I hadn’t thought of other languages factoring into how some words are pronounced.  That could explain why some folks/regions in America emphasize the second syllable.


Thank you all for posting.  Learning about how people in different regions and countries pronounce words is very interesting, to me, at least.
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 01:08 BST (UK) »
Sorry, me again.  I should be able to easily grasp your replies this time, if anyone comes back here…

When I was in college, having already taken French and Latin classes in high school (I thoroughly enjoy languages and learning new things), I found a language course for Gaelic.  The first thing the instructor said, after telling us her name of course, was to clarify that we were taking Irish, not Gaelic.  It was decades ago, but she went on explain the difference between the (southwest?)west coast and the rest of Ireland, I believe?  (Strictly mentioning language, not religion or anything else.)

What might the difference be, please, between a Gaelic language and an Irish one?  :-\
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 08:04 BST (UK) »
The language spoken in Ireland and in Scotland (where there are still about 60,000 speakers at one level or another) is the same language. It was taken to Scotland around 500AD by Irish settlers. They were a tribe called the Scotiae, and they gave Scotland it’s name. So Scotland is named after an Irish tribe.

(No-one is quite sure what the Picts spoke but in southern parts of Scotland the inhabitants spoke Welsh, sometimes called Strathclyde Welsh).

Gradually Irish Gaelic replaced whatever the Scots had previously spoken.  And then English began to replace that. However Gaelic is a language with many regional variations and dialects. So the Irish spoken in the Glens of Antrim was noticeably different to that spoken in Donegal and that is different to the Kerry dialect.  The Irish spoken in the Glens of Antrim was almost indistinguishable from that spoken in Scotland (so I am not sure I would fully agree with your teacher when she tried to distinguish between the two. They are not two separate languages. They are very closely related languages. When I did my beginners Irish course at Queens University in Belfast, the lecturer tended to refer to all the dialects as Gaelic, occasionally prefixing with Irish or Scottish if she wanted to explain any differences. There are differences in the way it is written eg the fada points the other way in Scotland but that is a much more recent development. Most native speakers couldn’t write anyway. They weren’t bothered).

It’s about 11 miles across to Scotland at the closest point between Antrim & Kintyre and folk went back and forth all the time.  Writing in 1654, a Dutchman,  Joan Blaeu described “Cantire” (Kintyre) and wrote:

“Today in the Irish language, which is used all over this area, it is called Kintyre, that is Head of Land. It is inhabited by the family of Mac-Conell, which has lordship but at the pleasure of the Earl of Argyll; they go regularly off to Ireland for booty in their light ships, and have occupied the small provinces called Glens and An Rata (the Route)”.

The Route is the area between Ballymoney, Ballycastle and the Giant’s Causeway.

In the 1850s people in the Glens would have spoken Irish (but with some English as well). There’s not much Irish spoken routinely in the Glens today, save in some schools, but it was widespread then.  It’s a slightly different dialect from that spoken elsewhere in Ireland now, reflecting the fact that the majority of inhabitants were of Scottish origins, having moved to Antrim in the 1500s and 1600s.

According to "Antrim and Argyll: Gaelic Connections" edited by Wm Roulston (page 2): “Gaelic links between Antrim & Argyll lasted well into the modern period. As late as 1881, 65% of the population of Argyll was Gaelic speaking, and clusters of native speakers of Argyll Gaelic survived into the twenty first century. Gaelic faded from Antrim somewhat earlier, but the Ordnance Survey memoirs show a vibrant Gaelic culture in the Glens of Antrim before the Famine, 43% of Rathlin Islanders were Gaelic speaking in 1901, and there were still native speakers of Antrim Gaelic in the second half of the twentieth century. The Antrim & Argyll dialects of Gaelic were linguistically very close.”

There’s an article here about the use of Gaelic in Ulster:


“Native Gaelic-Speaking Protestants
There is much circumstantial evidence of Protestants who were native speakers of Gaelic, and other Protestants who became very fluent through everyday interaction with other native speakers. Many of these Protestant Gaelic speakers came from Scotland. During the plantations of Ulster in the early 1600s only ‘inland Scots’ were supposed to be settlers; this policy was intended to exclude Gaelic-speaking Highlanders, but failed to do so. When the Marquis of Argyll brought his troops to Antrim during the 1640s uprisings, most of them would have been Gaelic speakers, and many settled in Ireland when they had finished their military service. Overpopulation and the commercialisation of estates in Scotland also pushed people from Argyll to Antrim in the 1690s; sometimes the dispossessed were recruited for military campaigns in Ireland.

During the time of the Plantations of Ulster there was little difference between the Gaelic of many Scottish settlers and the Irish of the natives. The Irish of Antrim shared many features with Scottish Gaelic, and the Gaelic of Kintyre and Argyll was very similar to Antrim Irish. Robert MacAdam wrote in 1873:

Even yet the Glensmen of Antrim go regularly to Highland fairs, and communicate without the slightest difficulty with the Highlanders. Having myself conversed with both Glensmen and Arranmen, I can testify to the absolute identity of their speech (Ó Baoill 2000: 122).
Elwyn


Offline dublin1850

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 09:00 BST (UK) »
If you use the term 'Gaelic' in Ireland, people will presume you are talking about Scots Gaelic. In Ireland, when speaking in English about the native language, we call it Irish.

On the Fermanagh pronunciation, my Armagh grandmother (a Mallon from Clonfeacle, b. 1903) used to pronounce 'Armagh' as Awr-maw.
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Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 10:38 BST (UK) »
Elwyn and dublin1850, thank you very much for your very interesting comments!  Most of your information is new to me - I now feel like I’ve been living under a rock.  A very uninformed place to be.  ;)

My husband’s ancestor was born in Ireland and supposedly was raised in an orphanage in Scotland (we cannot find him as a youth in Scotland, or anywhere, actually).  Yet, we have a photo that was taken in Dublin of him and supposedly his cousin.  I couldn’t understand what he was doing in Dublin if he had already settled in Scotland.  While I recently read (on RootsChat) a bit about searching for work between the two countries I had no idea that travelling between the countries was so widespread/common.

Regarding our language instructor, I’m sure what she explained made sense at the time.  However, during the last 40 or so years, I’ve most likely muddled it up.  I do remember being intrigued and intently listening.  It is funny how certain things stick with you though.  Even if you don’t remember them correctly.  ;D

My latest DNA estimated results include 38% Ireland and 32% Scotland. Perhaps the “earlier” movement between Ireland and Scotland is one of the several reasons why the Scottish percentage is so high, as I have no known Scottish born ancestors (going back to the late 1700s - early 1800s).

I am in the middle of muddling through my Mumfords from Essex, England but once I’ve finished with that quest I think I will return to my Irish ancestors and see if I can learn more about them.

Thank you both again!  It is the middle of the night here (another sleepless night) but “later” I want to reread all of the comments again to fully absorb everyone’s contributions.   Good night!  Lisa
 
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Online Erato

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 14:04 BST (UK) »
"no idea that travelling between the countries was so widespread/common"

When you think at a North American scale, it's easy to forget how close together things are in the British Isles.  My grandmother was very proud of her Scottish ancestors.  They immigrated to the US from Whithorn, Wigtownshire in 1834 and made their way west to Ohio and then to Wisconsin.  My grandfather championed his Irish roots.  His ancestors went to Canada in 1840 from Kircubbin on the Ards Peninsula and then moved on to Wisconsin.  There was occasional light Scottish vs Irish bantering between my grandparents.  If you look at a map, though, Whithorn is barely 50 miles from Kircubbin, as the crow flies.  Yeah, they're in different countries but Boston and New York [about 180 miles apart] were probably more distinct at that time [and maybe even today].
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Gloucestershire:  Barnard, Marsh, Crossman
Bristol:  Banks, Duddridge, Barnard
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Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 14:32 BST (UK) »
We sometimes smile here in Co Antrim when folk talk about “migrating” from Ireland to Scotland or vice versa as if it were some huge journey. It’s not. You can see the Scottish coast and the islands in the Hebrides perfectly clearly on most days. Folk go back and forth all the time.  For example, a day trip from Belfast to Ayr racecourse is a common outing. In the 1600s most Presbyterian Ministers were expelled from Ireland.  According to the Ulster-Scots agency, because they had no Minister at the time, in the 1630s the Presbyterian congregation in Killinchy, Co Down used to sail over to Stranraer in Scotland to attend church, and then back again in the evening.

Erato mentions that Kircubbin & Whithorn were in different countries. Yes geographically, but not legally (all part of one country - the United Kingdom) and frankly not culturally either. I notice many visitors from north America struggle to tell the difference between an Ulster accent and a Scottish one.  There is a reason for that due to a lot of shared heritage.

 
Elwyn

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Fermanagh pronunciation
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 05 October 22 17:36 BST (UK) »
I became interested in genealogy when I was in college. In the past, how I researched and gained knowledge of ancestors might be a bit different than that of some (most?) RootsChatters.

With the exception of one ancestor who was born in New Jersey, USA and who settled in Canada with his family when he was a young child, all of my North American relatives and ancestors lived in Canada, roughly 2500 miles (4000KM?) away from where I now live, and remained in one general area in Ontario.

When we went back home (to Canada) we would visit with family, and generally not take the time to research.

Over the decades of searching (on and off during the earlier years), my only experience has been ancestors permanently leaving their homes and families possibly in search of better lives and in one case to follow an uncle (and possibly better his life as well). 

It’s been a challenge to research from California but so rewarding and fruitful with the help of the internet and amazing RootsChatters.

Erato and Elwyn, thank you again for your comments.  It is interesting and enlightening to read about ancestors from a different angle, not just from my own perceived experiences.  It was very interesting to read about the Irish congregation!

I am very thankful that you both and the others have taken the time to share your knowledge and experiences. Not only am I continuing to learn things, I now have a different perspective for continuing my search.  Thank you  :). Lisa
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)