Author Topic: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?  (Read 4185 times)

Offline alexreg

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 17 December 23 16:03 GMT (UK) »
I now have 39 DNA matches to descendants of Richard and Nancy, including two who have Jane Smith, b 1722, on their trees. However, they are not direct descendants.

Would it be possible to give the links to the two which you have, please? It would be interesting to see if I have a match.

Many thanks,
David

Hi David,

The two DNA matches I have on Ancestry.com are 'arthurcoyle' and 'trinicoor'. They are descended via different grandchildren (Stanley and Jane Calveley) of Robert Calveley (b. 1725 in Thornton le Moors) and Jane Smith (b. 1722 in Storeton p. Bebington). You may also want to put the surname 'Calveley' into the search box and see what matches come up. As far as I can tell, I have no relation to the Calveley or Perry families, which are not from the Bebington/Bidston area. (Stanley Calveley, son of Robert and Jane, married Margaret Perry.)

Note that Jane Smith of Storeton was first married to William Wills at Bebington on 13 Feb 1746/7 (by licence), but William was buried 26 Feb 1752 at Neston, and Jane Wills was remarried to Robert Calveley on 20 Nov 1752 at Neston (again by licence).

Do please let me know if you find any DNA matches who are direct descendants of Jane Smith and Robert Calveley.

Alex

Offline alexreg

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 17 December 23 16:12 GMT (UK) »
I should add: one thing I find curious is that both of Jane Smith's marriages were by licence, as was her father Henry's marriage to Mary Stanley (at Chester!). This was common practice among non-conformists, though there were other reasons too. Jane was baptised of course, but no further children – it was also common practice for some non-conformists to baptise the eldest child (especially son) in the local parish church, to increase his prospects in life, but not subsequent children.

Offline DCB

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #29 on: Monday 18 December 23 10:15 GMT (UK) »
I can't seem to find the trees with your two matches. It it possible to give a direct link like the ones below?

These are my two matches, which I looked at again, and they do have links to Jane Willis Smith, although different. They also show Robert Calveley as sibling, rather than spouse.

The first one: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/100302863/family?cfpid=172016727641

The second one has two different Robert Calveleys and, like the above, as a sibling of Jane Willis Smith:-

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/102421508/family?cfpid=202296915381

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/102421508/family?cfpid=202242681201

I have quite a few ancestors or relatives who were married by licence. Mostly, it was because they lived in different towns or villages, and perhaps wanted to make sure that the preparations were sorted. The only one that was different, was by a mariner and I noticed that Thomas Moss was a mariner.

David

Offline alexreg

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #30 on: Monday 18 December 23 16:30 GMT (UK) »
Good to know. The number of errors in Ancestry.com trees is frankly very high on average, and no doubt we can put mistakes like Robert Calveley being the son of Henry Smith down to carelessness. Rather, he was a son-in-law, and the original documents make this clear.

Here are the trees for the two matches I mentioned.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/184906032?cfpid=342420780799&dtid=100
This only extends to a Clayton-Millington couple, but if you do a search among public trees, it becomes clear that Robert Calveley & Jane Smith (Wills, Calverley) are ancestors to Annie Millington. e.g. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/24172163/family?cfpid=1701839931

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/75951218/family/pedigree?cfpid=46331980070
This one goes back further, though again stops a little short of Jane Smith herself.

Anyway, I've been doing some more research the last day or so, and a picture of the Smith families in this area is starting to emerge. The commonly repeated forenames amongst the different families in the different villages had me suspecting that many of them were (distantly) related, and that seems to be the case. As I believe another member of this forum previously commented, farm labourers would have moved around a fair bit in search of work, and that very much seems to be the case with the Smith's. Indeed, some are attested as 'labourers' in the parish records. A few were mariners, which was probably a natural choice of career for sons of labourers or younger sons of yeomen and husbandmen.

In fact, I've now built out a little tree for the other Richard Smith (the one who married Martha Linacre), thanks to a will his grandfather Thomas left, and closer analysis of the parish records. I've also more tentatively built out a tree for our Richard Smith. The families of both Richard's seemed to have moved around quite a bit, even over the course of one man's life... Bebington/Storeton, Heswall, Raby, Moreton, and most distantly West Kirby! Despite the common names, though, I think I can paint a convincing picture of their movements over time. I don't have time right now, but happy to lay this out in a future post, if you're interested – maybe tonight or tomorrow.


Offline DCB

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 19 December 23 16:12 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for the links, although none of them were a match for me.

Is the will that of Thomas Smith who died in 1783 and published in 1785?

David

Offline timmis1

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #32 on: Friday 22 December 23 08:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi alexreg

I haven`t used Roots Chat since my last entry which feels like a long time ago, so I am now a but rusty with using it, so I apologise if I make some mistakes.
I have just been altered via e-mail to your post.
I am quite interested Alex in what you have found could you send me the trees that you have made?

Sue

Offline alexreg

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 28 December 23 13:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi David & Sue,

I hope you had a nice Christmas. I've got some time now, so I'll write up my thoughts here, though I warn you in advance that it may be a lot to digest at once!

David – yes, that's the will I was referring to. It seems safe to conclude that our John Smith cannot be the son of this Thomas, since John was buried 24 Oct 1780, and Thomas wrote his will on 15 Sep 1781, in which he bequeaths to his son John among others. I believe that this Thomas Smith was born 1704 in Caldy par. West Kirby and married Margaret Langley 1731 at Heswall church. They lived in Gayton par. Heswall and had several children, including Thomas b. 1734. The wife Margaret died in 1745, and Thomas senior remarried to Sue Ciknes at Bidston church. Sue apparently only died in 1790, aged 100! Anyway, Thomas, Sue, and his children from his previous marriage to Margaret (he had none with his second wife) seemed to have lived in Moreton par. Bidston from then onwards, until Thomas's death in 1783. Thomas died aged ~76, so this lends extra support to the idea he was the one born in 1704. Since he's described as a labourer in earlier records but a yeoman in his will, it looks like he worked his way up in the world, perhaps thanks to his second marriage, after moving around quite a lot as a day labourer for much of his career. Now, Thomas's son Thomas junior (b. 1734) married Martha Woodward at Bidston church in 1761, and they had a son Richard born 1764 in Moreton. That's the Richard Smith who married Martha Linacre in 1785 at Bidston church, so not our Richard – though as I mentioned before, the identical name, residence, and their wives having the same surname certainly hints at a relation.

Now to our ancestor Richard Smith, the one born 1755, son of John Smith and Mary (Yearsley) of Moreton... I've pored over the records trying to find more about the father John Smith, and I think I've arrived at a likely theory, although I can't be 100% sure. There is no doubt this John died 1780 at Storeton par. Bebington, following his wife Mary's death there in 1776. As for his birth, I've found a 1716 baptism record of Heswall parish, for John son of Robert Smith. By date alone this would make sense, since John's first wife Catherine Inglefield was born 1716, although his second Mary Yearly was evidently older, born 1704. Robert Smith was married to Margery Holt – they wed 1715 at Heswall church, and it seems Robert was a shepherd. Robert died young in 1729, and Margery remarried to John Ashe in 1733. Robert and Mergy's children, in order, were: John (b. 1716), Samuel (b. 1718), James (b. 1720), and Richard (b. 1724). James seems to have married Alice Woodcock in 1748 at Bebington church, and may be the same James Smith who died in Bebington in 1796, though records for this couple are sketchy after 1755 (baptism of their 2nd child). I've not had any luck tracing the lives of Samuel and Richard Smith, however. The Samuel Smith who married Ann Scarisbrook (or Scarsbrick) in 1742 at Great Neston church was most likely another Samuel Smith, also born 1718 (in Bebington rather than Haswell) to Peter Smith. I say this because he named his eldest son Peter. All the same, at least the marriage and children of James Smith seem to place him in Bebington during the same period as his elder brother John, despite both being born in Heswall – that's encouraging, to me. As is the fact another brother was named Richard, although I should say that John's such Richard (b. 1755) might just as well have been named after his mother's father, Richard Yearsley.

Finally, we have a potential link between the ancestral lines of these two Richard Smiths, going back to West Kirby, but also with both families residing in Heswall and then Moreton at the same approximate time. I mentioned Thomas Smith senior was born 1704 in Caldy par. West Kirby, son of another John Smith. Thomas's siblings were Margaret (1697), John junior (1699), Samuel (1702), and Joseph (1706). John junior married Ann Brown of Heswall in 1722/3, and it's explicitly written that he was of West Kirby. So here we have two links of this Smith family of West Kirby to Heswall. As for a possible brother Robert, this is where things get especially tricky – the parish records of West Kirby are patchy during the early years (even up to the mid 1700s). There was a Robert Smith son of John baptised 1680 at West Kirby church, but it's not clear if his father John is the same father as Thomas born 1704, perhaps from different mothers. FamilySearch has transcriptions but not the original images for West Kirby burials (while FindMyPast doesn't have anything for the burials I'm afraid). To me, it's telling that a Margaret Smith (no parents or spouse given) was buried 03 Apr 1695, and a John Smith subsequently married Mary Young in 16 Jan 1695/6. So, my guess is that Robert Smith b. 1680 and Thomas Smith b. 1704 were indeed brothers, albeit the former by the first wife Margaret, the latter by the second wife Mary Young. That would make the two aforementioned Richard Smith's second cousins, while their wives Nancy and Martha Linacre were first cousins (daughters of Daniel and Thomas Linacre respectively, both of Great Meols par. West Kirby).

That's more than enough for now. Of course, I'd be glad to hear either of your thoughts on the above. Perhaps you can even expand on it, with a bit of luck.

Alex

Offline alexreg

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #34 on: Friday 29 December 23 17:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi again,

I just made an interesting discovery on the Linacre side of the family, in case you're curious. As we know, Ann/Nancy Linacre (wife of our Richard Smith) was born around 1754, likely in Great Meols par. West Kirby, though she and her parents later moved to Moreton par. Biston. We know from Richard & Nancy's child's baptism record (Betty Smith, 1779) that Ann/Nancy's parents were Daniel Linacre and his wife Margaret.

The problem is that the West Kirby parish records are very patchy, as I mentioned. Checking FindMyPast and FamilySearch, it seems only these years are present (between the originals and bishop's transcripts).

Baptisms: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-1738, 1741-1743, 1747-1752, 1754-1964
Marriages: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-1738, 1741-1743, 1747-1752, 1754-1861
Burials: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-39, 1742-1743, 1746, 1748-1752, 1756-1757, 1759-1812

Ann/Nancy Linacre's birth year is estimated from her age at burial to be 1753-1754, with some usual room for error, of course. Given that 1753 is the only year that baptism records of West Kirby are missing, from 1747 onwards. Curiously, however, there are no other baptism records for children of theirs. There's another possibility: that all their children were baptised at Upton (Overchurch), whose parish records only survived consistently from 1756.

All this said, I stumbled across a very interesting record for a marriage at Great Budworth parish church, some 35 miles east of West Kirby! It's dated 23 Sep 1751, and for a Daniel 'Linigar' of Weaverham (nearby) and Margaret Harrison of Great Budworth. Now, there are no records of the baptisms of either Daniel or Margaret in this vicinity, and in particular no Linacre's (or any spelling variant) whatsoever in this area, so this got me wondering. The names, date, and other circumstances of this marriage seem too coincidental not to be our ancestors. So my best theory is that they eloped and then returned to the part of the Wirral where they were from. In fact, the most likely candidate for Margaret Harrison is the one baptised 01 Nov 1721 at Woodchurch church to Henry Harrison and his wife Eleanor Whittle, of Arrowe. The 04 Jan 1791 burial record for Margaret Linacre wife of Daniel is very curious, since it gives her age as 88, implying a birth year of ~1702, some 26 years older than her husband Daniel! My working assumption is that her age may actually have been 66, making her born around 1722, though I could well be mistaken on this point.

David, if you're able to check your DNA matches for any Harrison's in Cheshire and see if they point towards Woodchurch parish (Arrowe in particular), I'd be very interested in seeing what you find. No doubt they'll be very distant matches, a low number of cMs, if you have any.

Offline timmis1

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Re: When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?
« Reply #35 on: Friday 29 December 23 20:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Alex

Firstly what a fantastic piece of detective work. I have not replied sooner as there is a lot to take in.
My reply is only about your response yesterday, not the one today, I haven`t had time to fully consider that one.

Just to set out what I think is the case from your research that you outlined yesterday.
We have two family trees for the Richard Smiths that are in Bidston/Moreton

Our John Smith`s Tree
Robert Smith(West Kirby)  marries Margaret Holt 1715 Heswall
Children: John (1716) Samuel (1718) James (1720) Richard (1724)
Robert Smith dies 1729

Robert Smith`s son John Smith(1716) 1st marriage to Catherine Inglefield(b1716) was 1739  (Catherine buried 1747)
Children from 1st marriage: Catherine, Ann, Mary
          2nd Marriage to Mary Yearsley (1704) was 1750 (Mary buried 1776 Storeton Bebington)
Children from 2nd marriage  Mary (1751) , Richard (1755), William (1754)
John Smith(1716(Heswall)) death at Storeton, Bebington 1780
Richard Smith Jnr (1755) marries Nancy Linacre in 1775

The other Smith Tree
Thomas Smith born (1704(West Kirby))
Marries Margaret Langley 1733 Hesswall
Children: Thomas Smith (b 1734)  +
Margaret dies 1745
2nd marriage to Sue Ciknes at Bidston Church, Thomas Snr & children live in Bidston after marriage of Thomas Snr
No children from 2nd marriage
Thomas Smith Jnr marries Martha Woodward  in Bidston 1761
Children Richard smith born 1764 in Moreton
Richard Smith marries Martha Linacre  1785 Bidston church


Connection

John Smith 1st Marriage to Margaret (unknown)
Children Robert  Smith born 1680 West Kirby
Death of Margaret Smith 1695
John Smith 2nd Marriage to Mary Young
Children of Second marriage Thomas Smith(1704) Margaret (1697) John (1699) Samuel (1702)

Thomas Smith(1704) & Robert Smith 1680 ARE COUSINS
Both give rise to Richard Smiths ie Thomas Smith has a grandson Richard b1764 marries Martha Linacre
Robert Smith has a grandson Richard Smith b1755 marries a Ann Linacre


Questions
When did Thomas Smith Snr remarry Sue Ciknes?
Have you got any DNA matches from the Robert Smith Line?
John Smith son of Robert Smith do both of his marriages ie to Catherine Inglfield & 2nd to Mary indicate he was born in Heswall?