Author Topic: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?  (Read 16516 times)

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 00:45 GMT (UK) »
Were any first names handed down in Elizabeth Marion’s family?  (Did she have grandchildren with family names?)
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 01:32 GMT (UK) »
Regarding the information  on the marriage certificate, 1895, -

"What are we looking for here, with Robert's information?"

Seeing that there is little information recorded by Elizabeth MACKAY about her origins might just be because.......... she knew very little.

Seeing that there is also little information recorded by Robert WALLER about his origins, when you know about his parents....place, date of birth etc.  might be because.......

......the document that you have is a transcription of the civil registration, made from the original church record, and it was an incomplete transcription.

Elizabeth Marion MACKAY and Robert Alexander WALLER married at the Congregational Church at Marrickville, 1895, and this was recorded in the church marriage register.

The state needed a record of marriages, and the church marriage register would be sent to the BDM registration office in Sydney at the end of the year. A clerk would manually transcribe  the church register to the civil register. Some of these transcriptions were incomplete ie the clerk cherry-picked what information to copy to the civil register and left out anything else because....... it was not important.

By the mid-1890s, and knowing that this incomplete transcription had been happening for about 20 years, the state registration office made effort to retrospectively add the missing information by again accessing the original church records, using volunteers to help.

This project was not completed.

Ordering a certificate from state records NSW for a marriage during ~ 1875-1895 will return you one of  -

* a full transcription with all details.

* an incomplete transcription, which is what I suspect you have.

* an incomplete transcription, made complete with details added retrospectively, and notated to identify every amendment, date of amendment, and name of registrar ....giving authority to the amendments.

If you have an incomplete transcription, all is not lost. Knowing the name of the church, and Minister, and date, the researcher, that's you, locates the marriage register in a church archive, and you contact the church archive directly and request an image of the original.

Seeing how little information is also recorded about Robert Alexander WALLER is the clue to the possibility that I am suggesting, and so my interest in his details. 

By way of example, and made with kindly intention, selective interest guided your response to my request for all the information on the marriage certificate. You are interested in Elizabeth, so gave only her details.

Thank you for including Robert's details, and it might offer possibilities for furthering your research.

There are contact details at this website that might be of use to you - 

https://directory.archivists.org.au/index.php/uniting-church-in-australia-synod-of-new-south-wales-and-the-act-archives-office


Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 02:32 GMT (UK) »
Some things to think about (with added “facts”)…

Supposedly, Elizabeth Marion MacKay, born c1875, Toronto, Canada.  Died 1937.  Father: George MacKay.  Married Robert Alexander Waller, Marrickville, Sydney, Australia. 1895, usual residence: Manly.

Possibilities?
Passenger list, 15 Nov 1877
MACKAY George     26y   builder   born Sutherland   Presby     read/write
MACKAY Sarah       23y                born Canada           "               "
MACKAY Eliza           1y               born Canada           "

Ontario Marriages
George McKay.  Spouse: Sarah Jane Morrison
Marriage Date and Place: 23 Jul 1875, Toronto, York, Ontario, Canada

1900 Sydney, Australia marriage document for Catherine Elizabeth McKay.
Parents: George McKay, Sarah Jane Morrison. Place of residence: Manly.

Do you know where Elizabeth was buried?  If so, have you searched for other MacKays in the cemetery?

Could there really have been two Eliza/Elizabeth MacKays born in Canada c1875, with a father named George sailing to Australia before 1895? 

Why wasn’t her mother noted in documents?  Did she die young?  Note: I think wivenhoe just answered the question - possibly an incomplete record.

Regarding their three sons…is there any chance that Elizabeth Marion was their mother and Lily Marion was a stepmother?

1948 death notice, mentioning Marion MacKay - deceased (not Waller)
Was Marion’s maiden name used?  Forgive my ignorance but did Scottish women use their maiden names for documents (census records, etc.)? 

NSW Birth index search:
for George and Sarah J Mackay:
Catherine E S 1878 Newtown
Georgina B (Barbara??) in 1880 Balmain
Marian in 1887 Brisbane Water (to Sarah I - but could be mis-transcribed).
  Note: did this Marion die in 1947.

Was this Marian possibly Lily Marion, Elizabeth Marion’s sister?

I do think you are wise to question Elizabeth Marion - there certainly could be similar people. 
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 02:43 GMT (UK) »
Ontario, Canada marriages
Sarah Jane Morrison, age 23 (born c1852), Malton, Ontario. Residence - Toronto.  Spinster. Religion - Methodist.
Marriage date and place: 23 Jul 1875, York, Ontario, Canada. By whom married - Rev. Robert Wallace. By License.
Parents -  Robert and Eliza Morrison
Spouse - George McKay, religion - Presbyterian.

George McKay, age 26, residence - Toronto.  Born Sutherlandshire, Scotland. Batchelor, Stonecutter.
Parents - Sutherland & Mary Ann McKay

Witnesses: John Morrison and Rebecca Caines/Carnes, Toronto.
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)


Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 03:14 GMT (UK) »


Sydney Morning Herald 21 Oct 1936 p13
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/29535976?
WALLER.-The relative and Friends of Mrs Lillian Marion WALLER, Robert and Harry...her son and their brother Albert Victor Mackay WALLER..... Church of England Cemetery, Field of Mars.

WALLER. - The Relatives and Friends of Mr. and Mrs. Robert WALLER and family......their dearly be-
loved brother Albert Victor...

Sydney Morning Herald 18 Aug 1937 p13
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17393946?
WAI.LER.-The Relatives and Friends of the late Lillian Marion WALLER....... Church of England Cemetery, Field of Mars.

WALLER.-The Relatives and Friends of Robert, Harry, Olive, Maisie and Thelma WALLER ....mother Lilian....

The website for Field of Mars Cemetery is not working just now.

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 04:03 GMT (UK) »
Further to the BORTHWICK Catherine death, 1948.....this looks promising

Ancestry Sydney Anglican Parish Registers.

21 Mar 1900 Saints Simon and Jude Surry Hills Sydney
BORTHWICK Gustave James        bachelor  birthplace Ryde     butcher   26 years
usual residence  Manly
Parents:  James BORTHWICK, carpenter,   Louise BUCKHAM

McKAY Catherine Elizabeth         spinster    birthplace      Living at home  21 years
usual residence Manly
Parents: Geoge McKAY  stonemason   Sarah James MORRISON

Witness      R   A    WALLER

all parties sign   Catherine signs as C E S McKAY

                                ALSO -


St Michael Flinders Street Surrey Hills Sydney
BORTHWICK   Marion May
Parents: Gustave James, mounted constable  and Catherine
Abode: Police Station Agricultural Grounds. 
born 9 Oct 1904 baptised 15 Dec 1904

* for the marriage, and names of parents, the absence of notation...(dec)...does not mean that parents are alive as I do not see that notation on other marriages.

Offline Lisa in California

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 04:26 GMT (UK) »
Sarah Janie Mackay [Sarah Janie Morrison]
Marriage Date - 31 Oct 1888
Marriage Place - Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Parish as it appears - Surry Hills Campbell Street
Father - Robert Morrison
Spouse - James Wright

I found a marriage document earlier tonight.  I can’t find it now.  Sarah stated that she was widowed.
Ellison: Co. Wicklow/Canada       Fowley: Sligo/Canada       Furnival: Lancashire/Canada       Ibbotson: Sheffield/Canada       Lee/DeJongh: Lancashire & Cheshire       Mumford: Essex/Canada       Ovens: Ireland/Canada       Sarge: Yorkshire/Canada             Stuart: Sligo/Canada       Sullivan: Co. Clare/Canada      Vaus: Sussex/Surrey      Wakefield: Tuam or Ballinasloe, Ireland              (Surname: Originated/Place Last Lived)  (Canadians lived in Ontario)

Offline fyremoon

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 04:47 GMT (UK) »
Regarding the information  on the marriage certificate, 1895, -

"What are we looking for here, with Robert's information?"

Seeing that there is little information recorded by Elizabeth MACKAY about her origins might just be because.......... she knew very little.

Seeing that there is also little information recorded by Robert WALLER about his origins, when you know about his parents....place, date of birth etc.  might be because.......

......the document that you have is a transcription of the civil registration, made from the original church record, and it was an incomplete transcription.

Elizabeth Marion MACKAY and Robert Alexander WALLER married at the Congregational Church at Marrickville, 1895, and this was recorded in the church marriage register.

The state needed a record of marriages, and the church marriage register would be sent to the BDM registration office in Sydney at the end of the year. A clerk would manually transcribe  the church register to the civil register. Some of these transcriptions were incomplete ie the clerk cherry-picked what information to copy to the civil register and left out anything else because....... it was not important.

By the mid-1890s, and knowing that this incomplete transcription had been happening for about 20 years, the state registration office made effort to retrospectively add the missing information by again accessing the original church records, using volunteers to help.

This project was not completed.

Ordering a certificate from state records NSW for a marriage during ~ 1875-1895 will return you one of  -

* a full transcription with all details.

* an incomplete transcription, which is what I suspect you have.

* an incomplete transcription, made complete with details added retrospectively, and notated to identify every amendment, date of amendment, and name of registrar ....giving authority to the amendments.

If you have an incomplete transcription, all is not lost. Knowing the name of the church, and Minister, and date, the researcher, that's you, locates the marriage register in a church archive, and you contact the church archive directly and request an image of the original.

Seeing how little information is also recorded about Robert Alexander WALLER is the clue to the possibility that I am suggesting, and so my interest in his details. 

By way of example, and made with kindly intention, selective interest guided your response to my request for all the information on the marriage certificate. You are interested in Elizabeth, so gave only her details.

Thank you for including Robert's details, and it might offer possibilities for furthering your research.

There are contact details at this website that might be of use to you - 

https://directory.archivists.org.au/index.php/uniting-church-in-australia-synod-of-new-south-wales-and-the-act-archives-office

Thank you so much Wivenhoe, this is very helpful information!
Yes, my intention was to focus on Elizabeth Marion, and so rather than get sidetracked by all the Waller information that is available, but still hasn't lead me to more about Elizabeth/Lillian, I didn't post so much of that.

However, your explanation about the marriage transcription is very promising - and educational, which I appreciate. I will follow your link and see what I can discover from the church records.

I will answer the other posts separately, as there is a lot of information, and some of it doubled up.

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Elizabeth Marion MACKAY b. abt 1875 Toronto. Who's her mother?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 04:50 GMT (UK) »
Ancestry Sydney Anglican Parish Registers.

31 Oct 1888 Saints Simon and Jude Surry Hills Sydney
WRIGHT James    bachelor    born Scotland   35 year   stonemason
Usual address    Sydney
Parents:  John WRIGHT   Mary CROSBIE

MACKAY Sarah Jane    widow   born Canada   37 years
Usual residence  Sydney
parents: Robert MORRISON   Eliza MORPLEY

witnesses  Archie DOUGLAS   Jane  W*TSCH              (all parties sign)