Author Topic: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?  (Read 3916 times)

Offline ARBELLA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
   Hello! I'm a published writer working on a book. RootsChat helped hugely in 2021- thank you! I wonder if your military experts might throw light on the story of my Great-Aunt Ada Ellen Powell- who apparently never married John Perkins, the 1890s Coldstream Guardsman who was the father of her first 3 children? 
   Ada Ellen Powell was born in 1873 at Hednesford,Staffs, daughter of Elizabeth & John Powell, a gamekeeper. John Perkins was born in 1869 at Wacton, nr Bredenbury, Herefordshire, son of a labourer. In the 1891 Census, John is a 'Single'  Private, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, Chelsea Barracks.
    Quick queries, please.. Was this a prestigious regiment? Would a Private who enlisted in 1890 have a choice of regiment? Or would he just be allocated to one? If so, did this depend on regiment numbers, or on the recruit’s ownl qualities? 
   I believe, in the 1890s, only a few soldiers per regiment were given permission by the Army to marry & have wives 'on the strength'? Was a Coldstream Guards Private, married without permission in the 1890s, likely to suffer penalties from the Army? 
    I’ve found no marriage record for Ada & John. On 2 April 1896, Ada registered the birth of her son Albert John Perkins, born on 18 Feb 1896. Father: John Perkins, 'Private Soldier in Coldstream Guards'. Her address: Bowmans Hill, Winslow, 3 miles from John's birthplace. She called herself 'Ada Ellen Perkins, formerly Powell'. Is this a standard description of a wife? This formula appeared on every certificate for her first 3 children.
   On 13 Oct 1898, Ada registered a daughter, Ada May, born 13 Sept, 1898.  Father 'John Perkins, Farm Labourer'. It seems John had left the Army. Ada’s father, often officially called 'Farm Labourer' was definitely a gamekeeper. It’s possible that John Perkins was, too. Ada's address was still Bowman's Hill.
      Sadly, little Ada May died on 27 April 1899. Her mother, Ada Ellen, registered her death on 2 May 1899. All the details she gave matched birth details, with a new address: Suckley Green, Worcs.
     I know that by the 1901 Census, Ada’s parents lived in Suckley Green. Family tradition said that John Powell was a 'Head Keeper' for the Earl of Dudley.  John Perkins may have been a junior Keeper to John Powell, living in a ‘tied’ cottage.
    Ada's mother, Elizabeth Powell, remembered as indulgently kind, registered Ada's 3rd child, William Henry. Elizabeth said she witnessed his birth at Suckley Green,11 March 1900. She called Ada: 'Ada Ellen Perkins, formerly Powell'. William was registered on 3 April 1900, son of 'John Perkins, Farm Labourer'. But John may have already been in South Africa- perhaps as a Reservist- in the Boer War? He died there on 29 May, 1900.
    A descendant of Ada has traced the Army death record: ‘J Perkins. Casualty Type: Died. Casualty Date: 29 May 1900. Casualty Place: Bloemfontein Rank: Private. Force: South Africa Field Force. Regiment: Coldstream Guards. Battalion: 1st Battalion. Number: 7972.' Local newspapers reported that John Perkins died of disease & that his name was placed on a memorial in Hereford Cathedral.
     Do you think that John Perkins may have been first deterred by Army rules from marrying Ada? And that, although they co-habited after he left the Army, they may never have found a chance to arrange a wedding & turn a fictional marriage into a legal one?
     On 31st March, Census Day 1901, Ada, still in Suckley Green, described herself as ‘Widow’, at 27, & gave 'Perkins' as surname for herself & sons. Her 24 year old 'Brother-in-Law' George lived with them, listed as 'Farm Labourer' But in later records he was definitely a gamekeeper. He may have taken his brother's job, & his tied house, keeping Ada in a home.
     On 28 Sept, 1901, Ada & George Perkins married at Wolverhampton Registry office. He was described as a 'Bachelor'. Both gave the same Wolverhampton address, 35 miles from Suckley Green. They may have been on their way to George's 1904 workplace, Wolverley, 40 miles away from Suckley Green. Elizabeth Powell, who could write, was a witness. She presumably knew that Ada described herself, at this wedding as 'Ada Ellen Powell, Spinster'.
   If this was true, Ada's first 3 children were illegitimate. If it was untrue, Ada would, I believe, have broken the law by marrying George It was illegal in 1901 for a woman to marry her late husband's brother. The law was not changed until 1921. 
   Briefly, Ada stayed married to George from 1901 until her death in 1952. They finally settled, for several decades, in a pleasant Buckinghamshire village - over 100 miles from Suckley Green! They had two daughters who lived to be adults.
    Family memory throws no light on Ada's life with John. Frank Powell, her brother (grandfather) was 17 years younger than Ada. He only told me 'My sister married Mr Perkins!' (George, who appears in our photograph collection. No one I know has a photograph of John.)   I must stress that I have every sympathy for Ada, especially for her losses.
    A relative, Ada's direct descendant, researched the family & discovered the parentage of her sons. He - & an elderly aunt - were amazed, having thought they descended from George.  We would both very much like to understand more of the lives of Ada Ellen Powell, Spinster, & John Perkins, Private, First Battalion, Coldstream Guards.
   Any help will be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much for your time!

Offline Jebber

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,388
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 26 November 22 21:39 GMT (UK) »
Briefly a few answers. Guards Regiments were all considered top notch.

There was no penalty for marrying without the CO’s consent, just the wife and family would receive no Regimental acknowledgement.

As you are aware it was the time of the Boer war, so men would probably have been enlisted into whichever Regiment was under strength at the time.

Ada's self description as Perkins formally Powell was possibly to disguise the illegitimacy of the child, people told all sorts of untruths on marriage and registering births.

It Ada wasn't married to John there was nothing to stop her marrying his brother. Again you can find many instances of forbidden marriage. I have several in my own tree, one where the Vicar must have turned a blind eye since he performed both marriages.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,862
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 26 November 22 21:45 GMT (UK) »
So I wonder who this is on 1901 census in Lugwardine Court Lodge? I can only see one John Perkins with Wacton connections born around the right time

John Perkins   34, gardener  b Wacton. Married
Mary Perkins   34 b Westhorpe, wife
Dorothy Mailes Nash   1 visitor b West Bromwich

Offline brigidmac

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,013
  • Computer incompetent but stiil trying
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 26 November 22 22:18 GMT (UK) »
There is also a Henry Arnold age 26 boarding with that couple 1901

But there seem to be several John Perkins  who are gardeners  do you have details of his parents ?
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson


Offline Andy J2022

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,475
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 26 November 22 23:09 GMT (UK) »
Just to add the Jebber's reply, If he was recruited into the Coldstream while he was still living and working in Herefordshire or West Bromwich, it may be because the regiment was on a recruiting drive in his area at that time. He would have needed to be at least 5'8" tall to join the Guards. He would have signed up for 12 years, which at that time meant 5 years with the Colours, and 7 years in the reserve. Since the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Coldstream went to South Africa to fight the Boers, he would naturally have been called up to serve there. As a private soldier and a fairly junior one, he is unlikely to have been granted permission to marry and so have his family 'on the strength'. However that does not mean that he was forbidden to marry and he would have suffered no detriment if he had married, other than his wife and children would not have been able to accompany him. He would still have been able to make an allotment from his pay to support his wife while he was abroad if they had married. Since it appears that they didn't marry, she would not have received a pension as a result of his death.

In fact some of his service records are available on FindMyPast. They say that he attested at Worcester on 16 Jan 1890;  his occupation was labourer; he was aged 19 and 4 months and had been born in the parish of Battleburg, Bromyard, Herefordshire.  He was a reservist while fighting in South Africa and his period of service there was from 3 January 1900 until his death. He died of enteric fever at Bloemfontein on either 28 or 29 May 1900 (according to 2 different records) He was buried at Bloemfontein. He was recorded as married while a reservist (so not needing  leave to marry) to Ada and his two children were recorded as Albert J born 1896 and William Henry born 11 March 1900. However since he could not produce proof of his marriage his 'widow' was not paid any allowances. He was posthumously awarded the Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps for Dreifontein and Cape Colony.

Offline brigidmac

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,013
  • Computer incompetent but stiil trying
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 26 November 22 23:57 GMT (UK) »
That's really good that John acknowledged his children . I wonder what kind of marriage they'd had that wasn't recognised .

Hopefully Ada had a happy marriage to his brother George .



Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline ARBELLA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 28 November 22 17:10 GMT (UK) »
Briefly a few answers. Guards Regiments were all considered top notch.

There was no penalty for marrying without the CO’s consent, just the wife and family would receive no Regimental acknowledgement.

As you are aware it was the time of the Boer war, so men would probably have been enlisted into whichever Regiment was under strength at the time.

Ada's self description as Perkins formally Powell was possibly to disguise the illegitimacy of the child, people told all sorts of untruths on marriage and registering births.

It Ada wasn't married to John there was nothing to stop her marrying his brother. Again you can find many instances of forbidden marriage. I have several in my own tree, one where the Vicar must have turned a blind eye since he performed both marriages.

Thank you very much (and apologies for my delayed reply)! This is a most helpful answer to my queries about Ada, especially the question of possible penalties for a soldier who married without permission. I'm very grateful for your knowledge and your time!

Offline ARBELLA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 28 November 22 18:22 GMT (UK) »
So I wonder who this is on 1901 census in Lugwardine Court Lodge? I can only see one John Perkins with Wacton connections born around the right time

John Perkins   34, gardener  b Wacton. Married
Mary Perkins   34 b Westhorpe, wife
Dorothy Mailes Nash   1 visitor b West Bromwich

Thank you very much for looking this up - and I am sorry to be slow to reply! I do have lots of queries about my Great-Aunt's relationship with John and George Perkins - but I am pretty sure that I know what was happening to them both at the time of the 1901 Census. I think the complication is that the two brothers came from an area with several settlements, and that they did not enter the same birthplace as their parents had used for them as children. Below is the story as I understand it, working back from their adult lives... And thank you very much for your information, which shows that Perkins was a Herefordshire name at that time! 

My Great-Aunt Ada Powell’s marriage in 1901 was to George Perkins, John Perkins’ brother..

 On the 1911 Census form (which of course he completed himself) George gave his birthplace as Bredenbury, Herefordshire.

George was lodging with Ada at Suckley Green, in the 1901 Census, which called him her ‘brother-in-law’.

Ada stated on the 1896 birth certificate of her first child, Albert John, that his father was John Perkins, Private, Coldstream Guards.

In the 1891 Census, John Perkins is indeed listed amongst the Coldstream Guards at Chelsea Barracks. His birthplace is entered as ‘Brettenbury, Hereford’ – I think it’s a fair guess that this was an official’s garbled version of ‘Bredenbury’!

Albert was christened at Bredenbury in 1896 and John Perkins was named as his father.

So I think that both George and his older brother John considered Bredenbury to be their birthplace...

In 1881, a couple called John and Ann Perkins have an entry for their family at Wacton, which appears on the map to be near Bredenbury, They have a child called John whose birthplace they give as Wacton. Bredenbury is also near Edwyn Ralph, which they give as the birthplace of their younger son, George, whose age fits that of Ada’s husband. 

As you can see, the John and George Perkins in Ada’s life both, when adults, entered ‘Bredenbury’ as their birthplace. There were other Perkins who gave their birthplace as ‘Wacton’. It must be a common local name. But I’m confident that they are not the two Perkins who became involved with my Great Aunt Ada!  There are army records which show that her John Perkins, sadly, died in 1900, so he would not appear in the 1901 Census.   

Thank you again!                                                                                 


                               

                                                                                                                                 

Offline ARBELLA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why did an 1890s Coldstream Guardsman not marry the mother of his 3 children?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 28 November 22 18:28 GMT (UK) »
There is also a Henry Arnold age 26 boarding with that couple 1901

But there seem to be several John Perkins  who are gardeners  do you have details of his parents ?

    Thank you very much for helping with the Perkins! Yes, it does seem to be a common name in the area. Apologies for my late reply - I've been gathering information together. It's very helpful to know the local background - I'm very grateful for your time. There are lots of questions about the motives of the people in this story - especially about why John Perkins and Ada apparently never married. But I am pretty confident that I know where George Perkins was, and what had happened to his older brother John, at the time of the 1901 Census. Here's the story as I understand it.

     My Great-Aunt Ada Powell’s marriage in 1901 was to George Perkins, John Perkins’ brother..

 On the 1911 Census form (which of course he completed himself) George gave his birthplace as Bredenbury, Herefordshire.

George was lodging with Ada at Suckley Green, in the 1901 Census, which called him her ‘brother-in-law’.

Ada stated on the 1896 birth certificate of her first child, Albert John, that his father was John Perkins, Private, Coldstream Guards.

In the 1891 Census, John Perkins is indeed listed amongst the Coldstream Guards at Chelsea Barracks. His birthplace is entered as ‘Brettenbury, Hereford’ – I think it’s a fair guess that this was an official’s garbled version of ‘Bredenbury’!

Albert was christened at Bredenbury in 1896 and John Perkins was named as his father.

So I think that both George and his older brother John considered Bredenbury to be their birthplace...

In 1881, a couple called John and Ann Perkins have an entry for their family at Wacton, which appears on the map to be near Bredenbury, They have a child called John whose birthplace they give as Wacton. Bredenbury is also near Edwyn Ralph, which they give as the birthplace of their younger son, George, whose age fits that of Ada’s husband. 

As you can see, the John and George Perkins in Ada’s life both, when adults, entered ‘Bredenbury’ as their birthplace. There were other Perkins who gave their birthplace as ‘Wacton’. It must be a common local name. But I’m confident that they are not the two Perkins who became involved with my Great Aunt Ada!  There are army records which show that her John Perkins, sadly, died in 1900, so he would not appear in the 1901 Census.   

Thank you again for your help!