Author Topic: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)  (Read 3749 times)

Offline Cornelius88

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #9 on: Friday 16 December 22 10:04 GMT (UK) »
There's a transcription of a detailed document that might help in the bomber command digital archive. ...............
Hope this helps.
S_L
That is very helpful and it might be worth me contacting the IBCC to see what else they may have.  In any event it would be worth a trip nearer the Spring when the weather improves.

Offline Cornelius88

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #10 on: Friday 16 December 22 10:40 GMT (UK) »
If the Lanc was on it's way home, then the speed with no bomb load and less fuel load could of been higher. When the Lanc was shot down was it still maintaining formation in the bomber stream or flying alone.
Agree the speed might have been higher but I only did some rudimentary calcs from take off time.  My knowledge of navigational trigonometry got lost sometime in the early 70s...

There is an eye witness account which refers to the "sound of the bombers returning home"  (can't put my hands on the transcript).  Another was shot down not far away but it's not clear whether they were still within the stream. 

For navigation purposes, airspeed and groundspeed are measured in Knots (nautical miles per hour)
Agree but I didn't bother with the conversion, although over the full flight it could make a very significant difference to the calculated position; arguably even from Wyton to the Dutch coast. 

As regards historic weather data I have no idea if it is available.  The ORBs only refer to weather at the target and as far as I know there are no accounts of the pre-op briefing.  Not sure whether historic windspeed over mainland Europe would be available.

Unfortunately I don't know any pilots.  Again a trip to the IBCC might prove helpful but it will have to wait a while. 

Earlier I referred to a W/T signal: SLY V MCYA 2342 56603  My own thoughts are that it was probably "enemy coast ahead" or 'reached first way point'.  Does anyone have any idea of what it might mean?  I assume it would be in code or if in clear then meaningless to anyone save the intended recipient.

Offline SMJ

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 16 February 23 04:07 GMT (UK) »
The waypoint calls would possibly be individual to the squadron or even each aircraft and given in morse of course, hence the brevity. The sequence of letters may have been read from an overlay grid placed over the nav chart - think early football commentary on the radio in the 1920s 'and back to square one'.

There is a web site that provides reanalysis data of historical synoptic charts at https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/reanalysis.aspx which would provide the likely weather and wind direction for the night of the operation and allow heading and groundspeed calculations to be found for a given date.

For doing the maths have a look at an online simulator of the traditional type of air calculator at
https://e6bx.com/e6b/ . It uses the same principles as the hand held nav computers. Rather than do it with pencil and ruler why not use Google Maps to plot the co-ordinates and distances and then calculate the airspeed to groundspeed changes to get the time to fly each leg? Do you know  whether they climbed at base before departing (as per 8th USAAF) or climbed en-route?

You can use 160 mph IAS for the climb to 12,000ft and 155-150 mph IAS above that. Once at cruise height 160 to 170 mph IAS on the outward and 160 mph IAS on the return leg seem to be the standard operational procedure. The Lancaster would climb at about 1,100 ft per minute or about 45 minutes to reach 28,000 ft. Info from Lancaster pilots notes available online.

To get the TAS (True Airspeed) from the IAS (Indicated Airspeed) add 2% for every 1000 ft of altitude. This calculation would normally be provided by the circular slide rule on the back of the 'Computer'

If you don't get anywhere with the maths it may be something that the General Aviation Group at the Royal Institute of Navigation may be interested in or give you a pointer to someone who would be.
Paternal:
Jones (Shropshire & Flintshire Wales)
Wilding (Shropshire)
Davies (Shropshire)
Thomas (Denbighshire Wales)
Williams (Shropshire)
Roberts (Denbighshire Wales)
Oare (Shropshire)
Everall (Shropshire)

Maternal:
Black (Leicestershire)
Wilkins (Leicestershire)
Randall/Randle (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Dyer (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Whitaker (Leicestershire)
Toplis (Derbyshire & Leicestershire)
Pike (Leicestershire)
Sheldon (Leicestershire)

Offline Cornelius88

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 19 February 23 10:26 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much for your extremely knowledgeable post.  It's rather a lot for me to take in but as I said upthread my knowledge of navigation went bye byes somewhere back in the early 70s....

There are some very useful links, for which many thanks.  Regarding your questions....

1.  I find using Google maps cumbersome for this sort of thing but yes I'll give it another go.... 

2.  No idea whether they climbed at base or over some distance.  I would guess that it varied with each op, how far to target and the consequent fuel usage. 

3.  I'm currently trying to get more info via the IBCC at Lincoln, but if that fails I will certainly try the Royal Institute of Navigation. 

Makes me wish my Grammar School maths teacher was still alive - he did this stuff for real.


Offline SMJ

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 19 February 23 17:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi Cornelius88,

If you try to do it with maps, sellotape etc. you will probably need 3 1:1,000,000 charts to cover the route - UK, Central Europe and maybe France.

As you mentioned it was a Pathfinder group they would have their own procedures. There is a greater collision risk climbing over base in the dark than maintaining a constant heading in a stream. Also Luftwaffe night fighters would loiter around the airfields to try and pick off climbing aircraft.

The 8th USAAF climbed over base as they were forming up in daylight and needed to maintain a box formation or to pick up the fighter escort. They did suffer from collisions in overcast conditions though.

Pathfinder crews were experienced and had the full gamut of Nav aids. One of your waypoints is just off the Dutch coast, maybe a Sky Marker 'Wanganui' dropped at altitude on the route. I have found an interesting resume at https://masterbombercraig.wordpress.com/bomber-command-structure/no-8-pff-group-bomber-command/pathfinder-force-pff/pathfinder-methods/

If I could find my course notes at the back of the garage, I could have a sit and think about it myself but I haven't done a nav ex since 1979 - and that was at 250' not 28,000'.
Paternal:
Jones (Shropshire & Flintshire Wales)
Wilding (Shropshire)
Davies (Shropshire)
Thomas (Denbighshire Wales)
Williams (Shropshire)
Roberts (Denbighshire Wales)
Oare (Shropshire)
Everall (Shropshire)

Maternal:
Black (Leicestershire)
Wilkins (Leicestershire)
Randall/Randle (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Dyer (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Whitaker (Leicestershire)
Toplis (Derbyshire & Leicestershire)
Pike (Leicestershire)
Sheldon (Leicestershire)

Offline JustinL

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #14 on: Friday 24 February 23 12:05 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

Are you familiar with the 'My Maps' function of google maps, which allows you to mark multiple points on a map?

I have created the attached map from the coordinates quoted on your Loss Card. You simply enter them in the search bar of the map in a decimal format, i.e. 5242N 0050W = 52.42, 0.5

I found the LC and agree with your reading of the coordinates, except for the first point which is 5242N 0015W. However, the points don't seem to make a sensible route over Aachen.

You need to lay your hands on the Bomber Command Report on Night Operations for the raid in question. These reports are held at the National Archives in Kew (AIR 14). It's also available online here https://lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com/flipbook/NRR_11-19_April_44/files/mobile/index.html#1

There's a route map at the end of the report.

Justin

Offline SMJ

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #15 on: Friday 24 February 23 16:49 GMT (UK) »
Sorry JustinL,

I think the reason you're having difficulties matching the co-ordinates to the raid is because they are given in degrees and minutes in the records. So 50 44 N 06 10 E is 50˚44' N 06˚10' E = 50.(44/60)N 6.(10/60)E = 50.733 N 6.167E. This gives a point 4.4 miles SE of Aachen city centre, an ideal aiming point if you are allowing for the normal 'creep' that occurs as bomb aimers tend to release slightly early as the operation progresses.

BTW It's possible to enter Degrees, Minutes and Seconds directly into Google Maps by using the degree symbol (Option k with a mac) and single and double quotes for minutes and seconds.

52˚42’ N 00˚05’ W (Crowland) Initial turning point ? Approx 23 miles NNNE of Wyton

52˚00’ N 03˚30’ E (40 miles WNW Rotterdam) Air marker difficult to spoof as in the N Sea. Possibly easy co-ordinates on Gee or Oboe. (Oboe mentioned in report)

50˚44’ N 06˚10’ E (4.4 miles SE of Aachen city centre) Marking beyond Target Point to allow for aiming/release creep and wind.

52˚00’ N 03˚ 30’ E (40 miles WNW Rotterdam) Same as above

51˚00’ N 06˚ 20’ E (18.5 miles or 30 km NW Aachen) Marker showing route away from target.

Maybe bottom two co-ordinates in the wrong order in original post?

It now matches the sketch on page 5 of the Night Raid Report.
Paternal:
Jones (Shropshire & Flintshire Wales)
Wilding (Shropshire)
Davies (Shropshire)
Thomas (Denbighshire Wales)
Williams (Shropshire)
Roberts (Denbighshire Wales)
Oare (Shropshire)
Everall (Shropshire)

Maternal:
Black (Leicestershire)
Wilkins (Leicestershire)
Randall/Randle (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Dyer (Warwickshire & Leicestershire)
Whitaker (Leicestershire)
Toplis (Derbyshire & Leicestershire)
Pike (Leicestershire)
Sheldon (Leicestershire)

Offline JustinL

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #16 on: Friday 24 February 23 16:53 GMT (UK) »
Correction.

The coordinates are in degrees and minutes, i.e. 5244N 0616E = 52 degs 44' N, 6 degs 16' E = 52.73, 6.27

The revised plot below closely matches the map at the end of the Night Ops report

Offline JustinL

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Re: Bomber routes to Germany (Aachen)
« Reply #17 on: Friday 24 February 23 16:54 GMT (UK) »
Our messages crossed  ;D