Help please - bit stuck, Islington birth or censuses

[QueenoftheWest]

How would that fit with the 1884 school entry?

That is the million dollar question!

It is just a theory for why OP is unable to find John with his parents on the 1881 census. John Howard Sr. was a bootmaker on his marriage certificate to Emma, which matches the occupation on John Howard (b.1874)'s marriage certificate (shoemaker)...

To know for sure, OP would have to order the relevant birth certificate to see if the birth date matches.

However, I would probably encourage OP to leave this thread up for a while to see whether they receive any other replies before forking out for a birth certificate.

Queenie 

[softly softly]

His birthdate year does vary between 1874 or 1876 depending on what records  are viewed. Aged 44 in 1920 trip to Canada and born 1874 on 1921 census.

John

[meaty]

Hi All - thanks so much for your replies! A treat that you are able to turn up so much info!

I don't have any birth certificate for him I'm afraid, the only way I know his birthdate is from the 1939 register record. Only one entry comes up on freebmd for Islington and I have been reluctant to order it as its the incorrect year of his birth - 1875 John Morgan Howard 1b 338.

A birth certificate would be my preference but what would you go for - which one?! If it confirms teh correct info I will of course order the marriage cert too.

Many trees on Ancestry have him as son of a Thomas Stephen Howard and Lydia Burgess but I didnt fancy these as the dates never married up, and you know what its like on there these days once somebody puts something up, many others just copy it if Ancestry suggests it is correct.

Many thanks

[softly softly]

meaty, Your post has been most interesting to try and research. My own experience and I'm sure it's the same with other rootschatters is that sometimes things "do not seem to add up". However many of the posts do tend to lead towards a scenrio that John was born in 1874 and that his parents were indeed John & Emma who married in 1873.In your case I feel that if you have £7.50 to spare for a pdf copy of the John Howard birth could prove a good investment, this will show the exact date of birth to confirm various findings.

HOWARD, JOHN       DALTERY
GRO Reference: 1874  S Quarter in HOLBORN  Volume 01B  Page 739

As a side note your John(1874) died in 1957, and Emily Susan died 1966. Both have a probate record image on Anc* and both mention their daughter Nellie Frances Gamblin nee' Howard.

John

[meaty]

Thank you John - I have ordered that cert and will let you know the details.

Also thanks for the death dates, which I did not have. I'm not so hot on the full use of ancestry searching but will remember to go looking at the probate records.

Out of intrest, how do you guys get the mothers surname showing on your GRO details that you post below? And by that I mean 'Daltery' - when I search the GRO it doesnt show this amount of detail for me?

Many thanks

[mckha489]

Are you searching the GRO proper? I don’t know how you would get it to show up without a mother’s maiden name 

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results

Perhaps you are searching in FreeBMD? 

[QueenoftheWest]

Thank you John - I have ordered that cert and will let you know the details.

I will be interested to see whether he is indeed the 'John Daltery' with George and Emma in 1881. Even if he isn't, at least you can rule him out conclusively.

Queenie 

[wivenhoe]

"In 1900 he weds his wife Emily Banks in Portsea (Portsmouth) at age 25 and gives his fathers name as John Howard a Shoe Maker."

What occupation do you see for John HOWARD?. Is he already in the Navy?

What address do you see for him?.  What names for witnesses?.  Did he marry in a church?....what denomination?

[mckha489]

St Luke’s Church, Portsea
March 1900
John Howard, 25, 1st Class Stoker,* HMS Duke of Wellington. Father John, Shoemaker
Emily Susan Banks 23, spinster, 2 Oliver buildings father William George Henry Banks, wood merchant
Established church after banns
Witnesses Henry Joseph Banks & Sarah Jane Banks


*which agrees with the naval record found earlier. Reply #8