Author Topic: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents  (Read 250 times)

Offline Sildeag

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Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« on: Tuesday 17 January 23 01:56 GMT (UK) »
I am interested in this family (as I am directly related) and feel there is enough evidence to indicate the family lived in or near the Newhills area.  I believe James Smith and Jean Mitchel are Peter Smith's parents and Alexr Smith and Bessie Smith (nee Chalmer) are grandparents.  Bessie Smith appears on many christening records is this Bessie Smith or Bessie Chalmer?  George Smith is in Newhills at Rivehill in the 1696 Pollable People, is he likely related?  What is Rivehill's present name?   How should I go about verifying all this?

For the parents I've found there are James Smith and Jean Mitchel in Madderty, Perth and Patrick, Peter, and Hary Smith are christened there.  Are these from a different family or the same family?

There is a marriage in 14 Nov 1749 in Strichen but there is a marriages of James Smith to Margaret Gray in St. Nicholas Aberdeen.  Smith is a common name but Peter as a first name less common and his christening has mother Jean Mitchel.  Is this a different James Smith?  Peter's son Peter was a blacksmith and had a small croft.   What is the Associated Church?

For the grandparents Alex Smith married Bessie Chalmer 24 Jun 1709 in Newhills. 

Would the parents get married in Strichen because Jean Mitchel is from that area?  or are they an unrelated couple?

I did find clues that suggested Peter Smith wife Mary Philip (1770-1850) father's name was William Philip but have lost the source and it represents a dead end. 

Any suggestions of ancestry would be appreciated?

Offline GR2

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 09:40 GMT (UK) »
Bessie Smith appears on many christening records is this Bessie Smith or Bessie Chalmer? 

In Scottish parish records a married woman always appears under her maiden name, whether as a wife or a witness.

Also, with Peter, be prepared to find the name given as Patrick. There is no connection between the two names, but they were used interchangeably in 18th and early 19th century Scotland.

"For the parents I've found there are James Smith and Jean Mitchel in Madderty, Perth and Patrick, Peter, and Hary Smith are christened there.  Are these from a different family or the same family?"

A move from Perthshire to Newhills is very unlikely because of the great distance. It is better to look closer at hand. Remember that not all baptisms/marriages were recorded, and not all that were have survived.

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 10:15 GMT (UK) »
I am interested in this family (as I am directly related) and feel there is enough evidence to indicate the family lived in or near the Newhills area.
Where was Peter born, and where did he die? Where did you find his birth and death dates? What is the evidence to suggest that he lived in Newhills?

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I believe James Smith and Jean Mitchel are Peter Smith's parents
What evidence do you have to make you think that his parents are James Smith and Jean Mitchel?
 
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and Alexr Smith and Bessie Smith (nee Chalmer) are grandparents.
Again, what is your evidence for this?

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Bessie Smith appears on many christening records is this Bessie Smith or Bessie Chalmer?
If she was baptised as Smith she is not Bessie Chalmers. She would be recorded as Bessie Chalmers in her children's baptism records.

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George Smith is in Newhills at Rivehill in the 1696 Pollable People, is he likely related?
No idea. Where did Alexander Smith and Bessie Chalmers live?

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What is Rivehill's present name?
Rivehill.

See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.0&lat=57.17979&lon=-2.27142&layers=5&b=1&marker=57.17603,-2.27453 and http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8309

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How should I go about verifying all this?
Look for original documents at Scotland's People, Scotland's Places and other primary sources.

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For the parents I've found there are James Smith and Jean Mitchel in Madderty, Perth and Patrick, Peter, and Hary Smith are christened there.
The recorded children of this couple are
William, 1758
Hary, 1761
Patrick, 1764

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Are these from a different family or the same family?
Without dates it is impossible even to speculate, especially with names as common as Smith and Mitchell. Madderty is quite a long way from Newhills in 18th century terms. You would need to find some pretty solid evidence to show that they were born in Newhills and Strichen, married in Strichen, had their family in Madderty and then the family turn up in Aberdeenshire. Far more likely that the Madderty couple is a different couple with the same names.

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There is a marriage in 14 Nov 1749 in Strichen but there is a marriages of James Smith to Margaret Gray in St. Nicholas Aberdeen. Is this a different James Smith?
If he was married to Margaret Gray and your Peter's mother was Jean Mitchel, then he is unlikely to be the same James Smith, unless he was married twice.

The marriage of James Smith and Margaret Gray is recorded in both Aberdeen and Old Machar. This is after the marriage of James S and Jean Mitchel, and before the births of the Madderty children. Therefore (a) if the couple in Madderty is the couple married in Strichen, the husband of Margaret Gray cannot possibly be the same James Smith or (b) in the unlikely event that it is the same James Smith, then your Peter cannot have been born in 1764.

However the Aberdeen couple, James S and Margaret Gray, had two recorded children
Donaldson, 1757
William, 1760

As the eldest recorded child of James S and Jean Mitchel in Madderty was baptised in 1758, these families overlap, therefore it is not the same James Smith.

Not really surprising as Smith is the commonest surname in Scotland and James is the second commonest given name after John. There are 134,151 records of James Smith, not including spelling variations, in the Scotland's People web site.

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Smith is a common name but Peter as a first name less common and his christening has mother Jean Mitchel.
Are you assuming that the couple in Madderty are the parents of your Peter? It's never a good idea to make assumptions.

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Peter's son Peter was a blacksmith and had a small croft.
Where? And when and where was Peter junior born? And who was his mother?

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What is the Associated Church?
One of umpteen splinter groups and denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland. Where have you come across the Associated Church?

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For the grandparents Alex Smith married Bessie Chalmer 24 Jun 1709 in Newhills.
Alex S and Bessie C had three recorded children, all born in Newhills
James 1709
Jean, 1718
Alexander, 1718

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Would the parents get married in Strichen because Jean Mitchel is from that area?  or are they an unrelated couple?
It was customary to marry in the bride's home parish.

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I did find clues that suggested Peter Smith wife Mary Philip (1770-1850) father's name was William Philip but have lost the source and it represents a dead end. 
Where was Mary born and where did she die?

I see that Peter Smith and Mary Philp had seven recorded children
George, 1795, Kinellar
Peter, 1797, Kinellar
Margaret, 1803, Skene
July, 1805, Skene
James, 1807, Skene
John, 1810, Kintore
Mary, 1812, New Machar
If Mary's father had been William, you'd expect them to name a son William. Though there is a gap between Peter and Margaret that could have contained one or two more children.


Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline ColC

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 10:47 GMT (UK) »
You noted the death years, is this them?

SMITH   PETER   -----   65   M   01/05/1835   227   30 / 303   NEW MACHAR

SMITH   MARY   -----      F   25/03/1850   235   40 / 286   RATHEN

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.


Offline ColC

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 11:00 GMT (UK) »
Possible marriage and baptisms, if they followed the Scottish naming pattern?

JAMES SMITH   MARRIED   MARY WILSON   06/04/1793   GARTLY

SMITH   JAMES   GEORGE SMITH/?      21/10/1767   ALFORD

WILSON   MARY   PETER WILSON/ISABEL FRENN      06/02/1770   ABERDEEN

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 11:19 GMT (UK) »
You noted the death years, is this them?
SMITH   PETER   -----   65   M   01/05/1835   227   30 / 303   NEW MACHAR
SMITH   MARY   -----      F   25/03/1850   235   40 / 286   RATHEN
If that is your Peter, and he was aged 65 in 1835, he would have been born in 1769/1770. Not in 1764.

There's a Peter Smith, aged 40, Blacksmith, in the 1841 census in New Machar. Also a Mary Smith, aged 50, in Rathen. What is your evidence to prove that Mary Smith who died in Rathen in 1850 was the wife of Peter Smith?

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 11:31 GMT (UK) »
1851 census, New Machar
Peter Smith, Blacksmith, 53, born Kinnellar
Jean Smith, wife, 33
Children George, 8, Peter, 7; William T, 5; Arthur L, 11 months.

Looks like the son of Peter S and Mary Philp, with wife Jane Davie.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Sildeag

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Re: Peter Smith (28 Oct 1764-1 May 1835) Parents
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 17 January 23 17:13 GMT (UK) »
To avoid any confusion, my Peter Smith married to Mary Philip was a blacksmith in Newhills Aberdeen.  I found the date of deaths and included them.  Mary's might be for the wrong Mary.  I don't believe the family christened in Madderty, Perth is the same but try not to assume anything.  Only connection is the Associated Church so I'll exclude them without further evidence to contrary.  The dates are around 1745 so anything is possible, whether likely or not.  I am not sure what the Associated Church is but the Newhills lot and the Perth lot were members.  I lack info about Mary Philip and her father's name doubtful.  Jane or Jean Davie is the wife of the son Peter Smith.  The parents and grandparents look reasonable and I have to consider Bessie Smith and Bessie Chalmer as being two different people unless proven otherwise.  Is there enough evidence around the grandparents, eg. a Newhills marriage, to prove James Smith their son is Peter Smith's father?

I think there is reasonable evidence that the grandparent marriage in Newhills is consistent with a Newhills family of Smiths but Smiths may be fairly common so more than one family might have existed.