Dublin emigration to France 1845-1848

[birdboot]

I am researching a Dublin family who arrived in Liverpool about 1849 and settled there.  In the 1851 census, their eldest son was aged 3 and place of birth was "France, British Subject".

The husband was John Murphy, born about 1820 and the wife was Sarah Kinsla/Kinsley/Kinsella, born about 1824.  I have never found their marriage.

I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions about why a family might move (apparently briefly) to France.  I know there was mass emigration from Ireland at the time of the famine, but I have not found any reference online to emigration to France.  As far as I can see, John Murphy had no maritime or military connections. 

[AMBLY]

Hello 

Is this the John MURPHEY Family  - in Birkenhead Cheshire 1851:

1851: 15 Chester St, Birkenhead (MURPHEY)
HO107 -  Piece 2175- Folio 68  Pg3
John MURPHEY 40, b Dublin (1811)
Wife:  Sarah 25, b Dublin(1826)
Son: James 4, b France (1847)

Same family
1861:  16 Edgerton St, Birkenhead
John MURPHY 52, Labourer, B Ireland (1814)
Wife:  Sarah 30 , b Ireland (1826)
Son: James 14, b France (1847)
Dau: Catherine 9, b Birkenhead ( mms Kinsla, 1852 Wirral
Dau: Mary 6, b Birkenhead (mms Kinsla, 1855 Wirral)
Son: John 3, b Birkenhead (mms Kinsla, 1857 Wirral)
Dau: Sarah 1, b Birkenhead (mms Kinsla, 1857 Wirral

This family, incl son James is in Birkenhead all the way through to 1891.  TFather john dies presumably btw 1881 and 1891, and his age age wobbles around to being born 1811, 1813, 1814, 1819.

Is this your family - was their son James, the son born France that you are asking about?

Regardless, I would have to say your John having been in the Army prior would be the most likely reason why son born France.   

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Just found this:

Cheshire Non-conformist  ( Roman Catholic)
Michael Murphy , born 16 April baptised 23 Apr 1848, Congleton, Cheshire
Parents: John Murphy &  Sarah Kinsella, married ("Conj")
Godfather: Patrick Bennett, Godmother Mary Fearney

Unfortunately, the document doesn't record the father's occupation.

But there is a good looking Birth registration:

MURPHY, MICHAEL,  mms KINSLEY     
Jun Qtr 1848  J Quarter in MACCLESFIELD

cheers
AMBLY

[birdboot]

Thanks Ambly for this information.  Michael is a new one on me, as I have never seen any trace of him before.  I have traced the family in all the censuses to 1901.  Apart from Michael, there was a Peter born 1849 who must have died and also an Owen (1863) who has disappeared.

James was in the Birkenhead workhouse in 1901 and I believe he died 1903.  I have Sarah's death cert on 22 April 1893 (witness Teresa). Husband John must have died between 1881 and 1891.

My main interest is in son John Murphy (b. 1857).  My partner's grandfather, John Murphy, died in 1936 a wealthy man as a partner in a shipping company (none of his wealth passed down though!)  :-(.  In 1887, when he married Emma Crowder, he was a bookeeper at a coal depot in Brentford.  This was the company with whom he worked until his death. 

My dilemma is whether he is the John Murphy from the family I have been researching. Censuses always give place of birth Birkenhead.  Marriage cert gives father John Murphy, Labourer, deceased, so it all adds up.

However, the rest of the family had very humble lives and menial jobs.  The only 1881 census entry that fits is a John Murphy working as a barman for his uncle in Liverpool.  Is it feasible that he would go from barman in Liverpool in 1881 to a bookeeper in Brentford in 1887?

I am trying to eliminate the other John Murphys born in Birkenhead between 1856 and 1859.  I have ordered John's death cert and hope it gives his DoB (should be 1st July 1857).

[ShaunJ]

Regardless, I would have to say your John having been in the Army prior would be the most likely reason why son born France.

 

Why would a British soldier be in France in 1847/8? 

[Ian Nelson]

Regardless, I would have to say your John having been in the Army prior would be the most likely reason why son born France.

 

Why would a British soldier be in France in 1847/8?

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=869393.msg7403326#msg7403326

See my discovery of Ann Bowles birth near Paris in the 1820s ... Her father William Bowles ( Esquire) was attached to the British Military.  When she gets married in Dublin in 1848 William is listed as a Mercantile Clerk.
So, why were they in France ?
cheers, Ian

[ShaunJ]

See my discovery of Ann Bowles birth near Paris in the 1820s ... Her father William Bowles ( Esquire) was attached to the British Military.

I can understand a British military attaché being in France, with diplomatic status.  I don't think that similar status would apply to John Murphy/Murphey, an Irish labourer.

[antonymark]

Hi there,

Just my first random thought.

Might an Irish labourer in the 1840s have been there building French railways?

Tony.

[ShaunJ]

Railway building is a strong possibility.

For "English" I am sure you could read "Irish" here:

The English navvy, who went abroad soon after the beginning of railway building, was a revelation to the foreigner. 'My God,' said the French, 'these English, how they work.'

https://victorianweb.org/history/work/sullivan/7.html