The rise and fall of Robert Chambers?

[Forfarian]

Robert Chambers was born in Dumbarton in about 1853, the eldest child of Robert Chambers, a carpenter, and his wife Anne Watt. He married Mary Leslie Gilfillan in 1880. They had three children: Mary Leslie Chambers 1881-1909, Robert Chambers 1883-? and James Gilfillan Bryson Chambers 1885-1979. Mary Leslie Gilfillan or Chambers died in Belfast in 1886 and her widower died on 17 April 1891, both of TB.

The curious thing is the list of Robert's occupations:
Scholar 1861 (census)
Joiner 1871 (census)
Shipbuilder 1880 (marriage certificate)
Shipbuilder employing 307 men and 59 boys 1881 (census)
Consulting engineer 1882 (daughter Mary's birth certificate)
Marine architect 1883 (son Robert's birth certificate)
Shipping agent 1885 (son James' birth certificate)
Naval architect 1886 (wife's death certificate)
Carpenter unemployed 1891 (census)
Ship draughtsman 1891 (death certificate)
Timber merchant 1909 (daughter Mary's death certificate)

I have looked at the original of the 1881 census to make sure that it's not a transcription error.

Son Robert and son James both died in the USA and I have not seen their marriage or death certificates to see how they describe their father. They emigrated in 1905 and 1908 and both worked in a shipyard(s) in Seattle. Mary's death describes her as a domestic servant.

Mary Leslie Gilfillan was a niece of Helen and Janet Leslie, who married brothers Peter and Archibald Leslie of the wealthy and prominent Denny shipbuilding family in Dumbarton. I have reams and reams of information about the Dennys and their connections and descendants, but it seems odd that their great-niece and great-nephews should have followed such comparatively humdrum occupations.

What really intrigues me is that I have yet to find any record of Robert Chambers as a shipbuilder other than his marriage and one census records. I'd have thought, for example, that the premature death of a shipbuilder who employed the best part of 400 would have excited some interest in the press, but so far I have found nothing. Nor have the trade/Post Office/street directories yielded anything of interest.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[GR2]

I entered 1880-1890, Robert Chambers, and searched in Dunbartonshire and Lanarkshire in the newspaper search on FindMyPast and have found numerous references to him. One given below as an example:

The Evening News and Star 24-4-1880:

THE MOUNT ETNA.- This tug, recently launched
from the yard of Mr. Robert Chambers, Dumbarton, has
made the run from the Clyde to Queenstown in 39 hours,
although the weather was very severe.

On 12-9-1888 the Evening Citizen reported that "Robert Chambers, junr. of Dumbarton, boatbuilder and patentee of the collapsible unsinkable lifeboat" and his brother, James, were returning from Helensburgh when their gig overturned and Robert was injured.

There are ongoing reports of a dispute over the patent of the lifeboat, with a final judgement seeming to be reported in the Glasgow Herald of 4-6-1891.

[ColC]

A few newspaper excepts from FindMyPast newspapers
(Unable to access full reports and there may be more)

The dates do not seem to add up?

23 January 1863 - Durham Chronicle - Durham
Mr Robert Chambers, jun., shipbuilder, Dumbarton, has been obliged to suspend pay- ment, through losses in business.

09 November 1866 - Edinburgh Evening Courant - Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
 Failure of a Dumbarton Shipbuilder— Mr Robert Chambers jun., shipbuilder, Dumbarton, has found it necessary, owing to losses in business, to suspend payment. Mr Chambers has

05 March 1880 - Public Ledger and Daily Advertiser - London,
Mr. Robert Chambers, jon., Shipbuilder, Dumbarton, put into the water a powerful tug steamer, built to the order of the Queenstown Towing Company.

15 July 1880 - Daily Review (Edinburgh) - Edinburgh, Midlothia
 Mr Robert Chambers, jun., shipbuilder, Dumbarton, has been obliged suspend payment

22 June 1881 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Mr. Robert Chambers, ]db., Shipbuilder, Dombaiton, put into the water power- Ini tog steamer, built to the order of the Queenstown Towing Company,

Also extract of this article on West Dunbartonshire website.

https://www.west-dunbarton.gov.uk/leisure-parks-events/museums-and-galleries/collections/shipbuilding/shipbuilding-dumbarton/#:~:text=By%201890%20only%20two%20shipbuilding,depended%20very%20much%20on%20them.

Cholera had visited the town in 1832, and the general sanitation of the town left a lot to be desired. By 1890 only two shipbuilding companies remained in existence in Dumbarton. These were Archibald McMillan and Son, which had been founded in 1834, and William Denny and Brothers. Both firms were important as employers, and for many years the prosperity of the town depended very much on them.


Colin

[Forfarian]

Thank you for these. But are they references to Robert (1853-1891) or to his father, also Robert?

As Robert was born in about 1853, I think the references in 1863 and 1866 are very unlikely to refer to him, and they don't seem to fit with his father either, who is described in the censuses as a ship carpenter (1861, 1881, 1891 and 1901) and house carpenter (1871), and who died in 1913 at the grand old age of 84.

And the 'final judgment in 1891' was after the death on 17 April 1891 of the Robert Chambers I am interested in and it does not mention that Robert Chambers, pursuer in the court case, was deceased. Surely the case would have collapsed on the death of the pursuer, if the pursuer had been Robert (1853-1891)?

And if the pursuer in the lifeboat design case was not Robert (1853-1891), then the references to the lifeboat design aren't him either?

The whole thing doesn't seem to make sense.

[Stanwix England]

Further to ColC's hints, here are a few more bits from me, thanks to their leads.

Daily Review (Edinburgh) - Thursday 15 July 1880

Yesterday, Mr Robert Chambers jun, shipbuilder, Dumbarton, launched a vessel named The City of Brussels of 500 tons dead weight.

End of article

Glasgow Evening Post - Thursday 22 April 1880

This one is too long for me to transcribe with the time I have, but it mentions another vessel launched from the ship-building yard of Mr Robert Chambers. Junr. in Dumbarton, only it's on behalf of Lochlomand and Lochlong Steamboat Company. It was called 'The Chancellor'.


Glasgow Evening Citizen - Friday 30 July 1880

This one is long too, but it says that the aforementioned 'City of Brussels' was built for Messers Thomas and Co. London.

I'll keep looking for other clues.

[Stanwix England]

Daily Review (Edinburgh) - Wednesday 22 June 1881

Under the heading 'Failures'

SUSPENSION OF A DUMBARTON SHIPBUILDER

The following notice has been sent out by Mr Robert Chambers, jun. shipbuilder, Dumbarton, to his creditors.

"Dumbarton, 20th June, 1881. Sir, I regret to inform you that owing to failures in business I have found it necessary to suspend payment. I have placed my books in the hands of M'Lelland, M'Kinnan (possibly M'Kinnon) & Blyth, CA, 115 St Vincent Street, Glasgow, and have to request your attendence at a meeting of my creditors to be held in their chambers on Thursday first the 23d inst, at three o clock in the afternoon, when a statement of my affairs will be submitted for your consideration. Your obedient servant, Robert Chambers Jun.

Mr Chambers has been in business for about two years, during which time he has launched about a dozen vessels. Much regret is felt in the burgh at the embarrassed state of the firms affairs. A number of men will be thrown idle.'

End of article.

Poor Robert, and his poor employees.

[RJ_Paton]

Robert Chambers (The shipbuilder) is listed in the clydeships.co.uk database as the builder of

1874     ENID         Yacht    Sailing Vessel
1879     JOSE PEREZ   Cargo    Screw Steamer
1880     GARLAND      Yacht    Screw Steamer
1880     NEVIS           Cargo    Screw Steamer
1880     FILIPINO        Cargo    Screw Steamer
1880        CASTELLANO  Cargo    Screw Steamer
1880     CITY OF BRUSSELS     Coaster    Screw Steamer
1880     ACTIV          Cargo    Screw Steamer
1880        MOUNT ETNA     Tug    Paddle Steamer
1880     CHANCELLOR   Passenger    Paddle Steamer
1881     PERTUSOLA     Cargo    Screw Steamer
1881     BERWICK LAW Cargo    Sailing Vessel 

[Forfarian]

Thank you again.

Still wondering how a carpenter's son could have set up in business building iron and steel ships at a relatively young age (21, if the 1874 vessel was his), and to have taken on nearly 400 workers within just a couple of years. Where did he get the capital?

[Stanwix England]

If the article I copied is right, and he was in business for only two years, he wouldn't be the builder of the 1874 ship.

I think the fact that he frequently seems to be referred to in articles as 'junior' suggests that his father already had a reputation within the industry, perhaps his father had a start in the business? Even if that's not what you have on the census for him.

So maybe some of the money came from him.

Or maybe his financial status was never that great to begin with, and he was robbing Peter to pay Paul the whole time? Maybe that's why it failed after just two years?