Author Topic: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words  (Read 624 times)

Offline Zacktyr

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1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« on: Tuesday 07 February 23 23:08 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I have 90% of a Testament Testamentar transcribed but I am stumped by several words throughout the body of the Will.

I have added screenshots of various sections and have highlighted the troublesome words with yellow.  Time is 1604.  Some sections have more challenges than others so I've only started with the first three sections that are giving me trouble.

The first jpg has six words highlighted but you will have to scroll to the far right to see one of the highlighted words. 

The second jpg has 9 words highlighted, but you will have to scroll to the far right to see about half of them.

All highlighted words in the third jpg should be visible without scrolling. 

Any help deciphering these words is greatly appreciated.  Thank you.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline RobertHauteville

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 08 February 23 19:49 GMT (UK) »
The first bit looks something like

"givin up be hys awn mouthe being seck in body hit lyfe and sonde in mynd"

Looks like he wrote with an accent? Scottish?

Offline GR2

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 08 February 23 20:03 GMT (UK) »
be hys awin mouth being seck in body yit ryt and haill in mynd = by his own mouth being sick in body, yet right and whole in mind

tyisday = Tuesday

Twa tydie ky = two tidy cows [ie two cows in calf]

Ane forrow cow p[ri]ce = a forrow cow, price [ie a cow not in calf]

Twa zowis and lambis thrie hoggis and thrie wodderes = two ewes and lambs, three hogs and three wethers [a hog is a young sheep that has not yet been sheared; a wether is a castrated ram]

The suoing of iiij b[olls] corne = the sowing of 4 bolls of corn [ie the estimated return from sowing 4 bolls of oats]

Ane firlot beir suoing estimat to the thrid corne = a firlot of bere sowing estimated to the third corn [ie the estimated return from sowing a firlot of bere (a kind of barley) expecting to get a return of three times what was sown]

In the last clip, the first part looks like a place-name (bothodrie?). In the second part, I can see "...restand of ane ..." = remaining of a.

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 09 February 23 22:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi, RobertHauteville,

Thank you so much for taking a crack at my dilemmas.  You were correct on the first half of that particular statement.  But, I see you had 'hit' which is what I had as well but knew that was wrong and as for the next word following I had "ryse" or "ryte", neither of which made sense.  I was closer than I thought with "ryte" and now seeing GR2s interpretation of "yit ryt and haill in mynd" it now makes sense.  I do find this old Scots handwriting a mixed bag of easy to read and impossible to decipher.  All in one document!  Thank you again for your input.  It is greatly appreciated.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE


Offline Zacktyr

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 09 February 23 23:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi, GR2,

Many thanks for your time and efforts in deciphering this lot of handwriting challenges.  It is greatly appreciated.  As with the 1621 Testament Dative you graciously assisted me with, as soon as I see your interpretation and go back and look at the words, I can see what you're seeing. 

The third section is very difficult - poor writing combined with a faint copy.  This was taken directly from Scotland's People website, so the best quality available.  My read of those words is:

Ibothodric or Hothodric or Clothodric [a place?]
so bie [a personal surname or a thing] in chorb [a place?] lbed restans of gut forbts price v li.

which, to me is pure jibberish!  So, I am grateful for your deciphering of "restand of ane".

I do have a few more words on this document that I need deciphered.  I will post those on this post later tonight and would be eternally grateful if you would take a crack at those.

Many thanks, again, for lending your expertise my dilemma.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline GR2

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #5 on: Friday 10 February 23 00:18 GMT (UK) »
The whole of the last bit is

Item be henry cochrine in [bothodrie] xxij s vj d fie Jonet ewing ane
[        ] in [             ] restand of ane [         ] price v li and for ane boll beir
iiij s
                                       Sum[m]a of the debtis foirsaid
                                       Sum[m]a of the Inventar and debtis
                                       debtis awand be the deid

Item, by Henry Cochrane in [Bothodrie] 22 shillings 6 pence fee (= wages) Jonet Ewing a
[         ] in [            ] resting (= still owing) of a [         ] price £5 and for a boll bere
4 shillings
                                        Sum of the debts foresaid
                                        Sum of the inventory and debts
                                        debts owed by the deceased

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #6 on: Friday 10 February 23 04:10 GMT (UK) »
Hi, GR2,

Thank you for adding the interpretation of the rest of that last section.  I appreciate that contribution greatly.

I am posting the last two sections that are giving me grief of this particular Testament Testamentar.  I have set out my take on the highlighted words.  It's quite alright if you burst into laughter.  I know I'm not seeing these highlighted words well, at all.  Lol!  I have the words represented by the "...".  I've used that just to indicate that the words are on the same line.

Working in order of the highlighted words, here's what I see:

Section 1

stayer  (30 of these are being used to pay the rent to the Lord)
tayne
maille ... ick
ancyt merkie  (this may relate to the old money Merks but I'm not sure)
shoone (as in shoes?)
iiii C v li. xvi s. vii d. (need clarification on the C as it has been overwritten and is a mess)
deeniot

Section 2

unstata
ind umphra...soire ... Spu? Tecvar?
Thuciefee (a surname) ... omr
Pysell (a given name)
utonll
bonties ... ReAernand bmxly
rakuing
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE

Offline GR2

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #7 on: Friday 10 February 23 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Here is a quick look at the first bit.

Item to my Lord sempill for yat zeiris ferme xxx stanes cheis price of the stane [i li]
Sum[m]a xxx li wt ane cayne stirk price iij li To Jonet barbour in sandistoun xiij li vj s
viij d To bessie barbour and roning [          ] to issobel symsoun for yair pairt of [         ]
[             ] for the said roning of [         ] ilk ane of thame vj li xiij s iiij d Sum[m]a xiij li
vj s viij d Item fyve firlattis teind meall price of the boll iiij li xiij s iiij d Summa
aucht merkis ten shillings To williame paull v li To margaret rutherfurde hire xx s and
ane pair of schoune price vj s viij to Jonet barbour his servane xl s of hervest fie
To Robert barbour sone to umq[uhi]le (= the late) george barbour of his bairnis pairt of geir
intromettit wt the said [niniane?] xij li
                         Sum[m]a of the debtis foirsaid          iiij c v li xvj s [vij] d
                         of the frie geir debtis deducit              xxvj li xix s ij d
                         Devydit in thrie pairtis
                         Deidis pairt is                                  viij li xix s x d

Item to my Lord Sempill for that year's ferme (= rent) 30 stone [of] cheese, price of the stone [£1]
Sum £30 with a kane (= due as part of the rent) stirk (young male cow) price £3; To Jonet Barbour in Sandiston £13 6/8d; To Bessie Barbour a running [           ] to Isobel Simpson for their part of [  ]
[       ] for the said running of [        ] ilk (= each) one of them £6 13/4d Sum £13 6/8d; Item five firlots teind (= tithe) [oat]meal price of the boll £4 13/4d Sum eight merks (a merk = 13/4d) ten shillings; To William Paul £5; To Margaret Rutherford's hire 20/- and a pair of shoes price 6/8d; to Jonet Barbour his servant 40/- of harvest fee (= wages); To Robert Barbour son to the late George Barbour of his bairn's part (= inheritance due to a child, not necessarily a young child) of gear intromitted with the said [Ninian?*] £12.
                      Sum of the debts foresaid                    £405 16/[7]d
                      of the free gear, debts deducted             £26 19/2d
                      Divided in three parts - deid's pairt**   £8 19/10d

 * looks like Ninian. If so. he will have been mentioned earlier in the document.

** the third part of the estate the deceased can leave as he wishes - one third is legally due to the widow and the other third to the children.

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: 1604 Testament Testamentar - need help deciphering some words
« Reply #8 on: Friday 10 February 23 18:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi, GR2,

You have gone far beyond what I expected.  Thank you so much for your assistance!  I can't express how grateful I am to you.  It's interesting for me to see how close but yet how far I was on some of the words.  I definitely need to expand my extrapolations of spellings.  Then perhaps I can start finding those pesky words in the dictionaries.  I'm also using Jamieson's 4 volume set along with the DSL dictionary. 

The second page of this document also suffers from tight binding so in the last section there are definitely words that cannot be recovered and I'm fine with that.  Again, any help you can provide on that last section would be so greatly appreciated.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE