Author Topic: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!  (Read 604 times)

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 16 February 23 23:27 GMT (UK) »
I just did a search over the entire online GRO database for all births, marriages and deaths in Ireland.
Not a single registration with "Souney" as a first name.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #10 on: Friday 17 February 23 01:02 GMT (UK) »
Actually, I may have just stumbled across a third example (without specifically looking for such!), that contradicts some of my previous assertions.

This one is a baptism from the adjacent parish of Kilmore, from 26 April 1752. Note that the Christian name of the mother was originally given as what appears to be "Soony" ?, which is crossed out, and replaced by what appears to be some form of Alice?

So, the one consistency so far is that each occurrence seems to involve the name Alice.

Also, all examples are from the Baronies of Forth and Bargy, where Yola, a distinct local language or dialect was spoken at the time. I can't help but wonder if this is related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language


BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Sinann

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #11 on: Friday 17 February 23 09:11 GMT (UK) »
Could Sourney be a variation of Souney?
There are two in Gort district Galway
One born 1936 on Family Search and death in Irish Genealogy in 1938 so not registered as Alice for birth or death
and the other a death of a 99 year old in 1896
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05896/4672837.pdf
with a slightly unusual note about her Christian name being supplied at a later date, clearly her grandson didn't know it when he first registered her death.

There are also a few records of Sorney mainly in Gort, so maybe not a variation of Souney.

Offline Dundee

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #12 on: Friday 17 February 23 09:35 GMT (UK) »
St Sourney (Sairnait in Irish), is the patron saint of the holy well and medieval church at Drumacoo, Co Galway. Sourney was a holy woman who lived in Ireland during the sixth century, little is known about her life. She is also the patron of the small early medieval church of Teampall Asurnaí (St Sourney’s Church) at the village of Eochaill on Inismore. Tradition recalls she also founded a monastery at Drumcoo during lifetime. Her feast day was celebrated on the 3rd May.

https://pilgrimagemedievalireland.com/tag/st-sourney/

Debra  :)


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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #13 on: Friday 17 February 23 17:53 GMT (UK) »
Always interesting what can be found! The conceptual difficulty I am having though, is the following.
Forth and Bargy were the lands of the Old English - the area of the Wexford Pale. Due to their isolation as a remnant of the Anglo-Norman invasion, Yola survived as a local dialect. Not a Gaelic Irish region, as can  easily be seen in the surnames in the parish registers - Pettit, Devereaux, Brown, Stafford, Sinnott, Furlong, Roche, Parle, Poor, Pierce, Rochford, etc.  As such, I somehow doubt St. Sourney's fame preceded her all the way from Galway.... no local (church) dedications that I know of.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 18 February 23 22:18 GMT (UK) »
I think I have it! How about the following theory - that Souney/Soony is a short or pet version for Alison/Alice?

Today I came across a February 1739/40 example in the Lady's Island registers of what seems to be an intermediate form, namely "Alsoon".

Alison is in fact a version of Alice, and Wikipedia informs us that the earlier Middle English form was Alisoun.  Given that the local dialect, Yola, was a survival of older English, I think it is relatively easy to see the step from Alisoun to Souney or Soony as a pet or nick name for Alice.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline eileenwilson

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Re: Souney alias Allice - Allice alias Souney. Strange!
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 18 February 23 23:10 GMT (UK) »
Nice work!  Sounds like a plausible answer to me!