Author Topic: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?  (Read 995 times)

Offline PommieG

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 18 February 23 05:22 GMT (UK) »
The 1851 census in Leeds that was mentioned earlier of Thomas Robertson, has a Sarah Parker listed as his mother and a Widow. William Parker b.1841 is a Half-brother. There are also visitors, a Hart family with the Head born in Africa.

St Bartholomew Parish Register Wednesbury . Staffordshire . 23
Marriage: 21 Jun 1847
Groom: Thomas Robertson . 24 . Bachelor . Brush Maker . Wednesbury
Bride: Sarah Hart . 19 . Spinster . Wednesbury
Groom Father: John Robertson . Cabinet Maker
Bride Father: James Hart . Locksmith
Witnesses John Stokes . Harriet Stokes
    I tried to follow up William Parker b. 1841. Sarah Robertson (nee ??) should have married a Parker about or before 1840. No luck there. Marriages are a rarity in this family. However a William Parker of St, Pancras 1861 census, China Mender, married to Emma Stratton may be the same one.

Following the Hart family led nowhere.

Offline PommieG

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 18 February 23 05:30 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if anyone related has a childs birth cert?

I have an inkling one or both of them may have been married before.

Married before ? I doubt that. Ellen was possibly only 18 when she gave birth to Sarah Feb. 1847 and Thomas may have been in detention in the early 1840's

Offline trish1120

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 18 February 23 09:07 GMT (UK) »
Fair enough it was just a possibility as I couldn't see a Birmingham/Robertson Marriage.
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Offline PommieG

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 18 February 23 10:22 GMT (UK) »
Fair enough it was just a possibility as I couldn't see a Birmingham/Robertson Marriage.
Neither can I. It's the missing link.


Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 18 February 23 10:48 GMT (UK) »
The marriage I offered was Thomas Robertson’s son marrying the Hart daughter, 20 years after the census. Both families must have kept in touch. It seems to have caused some confusion regarding a second marriage. As for a Birmingham/Robertson marriage there probably was not one.

There could be newspaper articles relating to both families.

I have come across the surname Birmingham before, but a few decades later. They were itinerants in West Wales living alongside travellers, and claimed to be local, with one from Chester, but there was a census that said Ireland. Travellers used aliases and changed their names to suit who they were taking with, so I doubt Birmingham was their birth name. This probably will not help, but those tracing traveller families will fully understand the brick walls.

The name Birmingham may have been used to blend in with the locals, as that area was their intended home. I do not consider it an Irish name. In Wales, travellers adopted Welsh sounding surnames. London was a Guild city, where all tradespeople had to belong to a Guild. Birmingham accepted everyone, which was why many travellers were based in and around that area.


Offline PommieG

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 18 February 23 10:55 GMT (UK) »
The marriage I offered was Thomas Robertson’s son marrying the Hart daughter, 20 years after the census. Both families must have kept in touch. It seems to have caused some confusion regarding a second marriage. As for a Birmingham/Robertson marriage there probably was not one.

There could be newspaper articles relating to both families.

I have come across the surname Birmingham before, but a few decades later. They were itinerants in West Wales living alongside travellers, and claimed to be local, with one from Chester, but there was a census that said Ireland. Travellers used aliases and changed their names to suit who they were taking with, so I doubt Birmingham was their birth name. This probably will not help, but those tracing traveller families will fully understand the brick walls.

The name Birmingham may have been used to blend in with the locals, as that area was their intended home. I do not consider it an Irish name. In Wales, travellers adopted Welsh sounding surnames. London was a Guild city, where all tradespeople had to belong to a Guild. Birmingham accepted everyone, which was why many travellers were based in and around that area.
The first recorded Bermingham in Ireland, Robert de Bermingham (son of William) accompanied Richard de Clare or 'Strongbow' in Henry II's conquest of Ireland in 1172. On arrival he received: "an ancient monument, valued at 200 pounds, on which was represented in brass the landing of the first ancestor of the family of Birmingham in Ireland."
     Not all Birminghams are Irish by any means.
   Marriage of Thomas b. 1850 to the Harts daughter I'm just looking into. Can't see a marriage. Found a baptism. Sarah Hart, 7th Oct. Birmingham, Warwickshire. Parents John Hart, labourer. Wife Jane. Residence Digbeth. Looks like they were travellers too.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 18 February 23 11:07 GMT (UK) »
Within census records I also found it spelt Bermingham as well as Birmingham.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 18 February 23 12:23 GMT (UK) »
I am getting confused. I thought the marriage offered was Thomas, the son of Thomas, but he is the son of John Robertson. The census has Thomas Robertson, the right age, along with Sarah Hart, the right age, under the same roof. He is the son, with the Head and father a Thomas married to Ellen. The Vicar seems to have made a mistake, or Thomas was also called John.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« Reply #26 on: Saturday 18 February 23 15:10 GMT (UK) »
There is an interesting article in the Carmarthen Journal dated 23rd November 1811 talking about the military in India. A John Robertson was in trouble for provoking a duel with another Cadet. It may not be relevant, but I was interested as on the 1851 Census Thomas says he was born in India and there is confusion in using the name John.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3676769/3676773/25/