Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?

[PommieG]

There is an interesting article in the Carmarthen Journal dated 23rd November 1811 talking about the military in India. A John Robertson was in trouble for provoking a duel with another Cadet. It may not be relevant, but I was interested as on the 1851 Census Thomas says he was born in India and there is confusion in using the name John.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3676769/3676773/25/

     Interesting indeed !  in 1811 the military in India was the private army of the East India Co. Not until 1857 was the British army proper involved. It may not be relevant ?  Thomas Robertson in censuses 1841- Middlesex, 1851- East India, 1861- Middlesex, 1871- Middlesex 1881- East Indies 1891- At sea.
      1851 and 1861 at Leeds gives the impression that he was resident there all that time. The addresses and his trade is different in each and the birth of Selina was registered in Nottingham.
   John Hart ? b. 1821- Africa ? I find that odd because 1821 Britain had no colonies or interests in Africa except Cape Colony. he could have come from there but why ?

[amondg]

See reply 14. Poster has Sarah's birth certificate.
No father listed mother Robertson.
So she was illegitimate.
Ellen appears to have made up the maiden name  Birmingham for subsequent children.

[PommieG]

See reply 14. Poster has Sarah's birth certificate.
No father listed mother Robertson.
So she was illegitimate.
Ellen appears to have made up the maiden name  Birmingham for subsequent children.

      I was the poster. I got the certificate some time ago.  Sarah b. 1847 St.Giles Workhouse. I just found this link 
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780303.0

About workhouses being used as lying in hospitals.  It seems they were. Ellen Robertson was not necessarily an inmate but went there to avail herself of the medical help there. She may have been an orphan or a prostitute. The superintendent might not have had the relevant information to fill the certificate properly. Thomas Robertson was probably not present at the birth.
      Sarah Robertson was illegitimate as were most of my ancestors and relatives down that line right up to my father b. 1907
      No doubt Ellen and Thomas were travellers. You may be right she could have chosen the name Birmingham if it was one of there 'camps' on the way to Leeds.
   Good thinking. Thank you.

[Talacharn]

I was not thinking of Hart being in the military, but the slave trade. It was certainly still happening in the Indian ocean. In looking, I was surprised to see so many Robertson’s in India at the time.

Did Ellen remain with Thomas throughout? I cannot find a marriage between Ellen Bermingham and Thomas Robertson, but there are marriages around 1850 to other men.

Both may not have used their birth names. Travellers usually had a few aliases. If you have access to newspaper articles, you could try Thomas/John Robertson and John Hart with ‘alias’ to see if they were known by another name. Usually they would be in articles of court recordings. Some travellers married in church, especially if they married a non-traveller, but many did not marry. Travellers without close family to help, often used workhouses for births. Workhouses were expected to complete registrations, but required the mother to know specific information and cooperate. Not liking authority, many did not give the mother’s maiden name, or understand what was meant by the term.

[PommieG]

I was not thinking of Hart being in the military, but the slave trade. It was certainly still happening in the Indian ocean. In looking, I was surprised to see so many Robertson’s in India at the time.

Did Ellen remain with Thomas throughout? I cannot find a marriage between Ellen Bermingham and Thomas Robertson, but there are marriages around 1850 to other men.

Both may not have used their birth names. Travellers usually had a few aliases. If you have access to newspaper articles, you could try Thomas/John Robertson and John Hart with ‘alias’ to see if they were known by another name. Usually they would be in articles of court recordings. Some travellers married in church, especially if they married a non-traveller, but many did not marry. Travellers without close family to help, often used workhouses for births. Workhouses were expected to complete registrations, but required the mother to know specific information and cooperate. Not liking authority, many did not give the mother’s maiden name, or understand what was meant by the term.

      Thomas and Ellen were together about April 1846.Where ? Unknown. Ellen's claim to be born in Manchester is now a bit doubtful. They stayed together until her untimely death in July 1870 aged 48.
Sarah, their daughter died 1892 aged 45. Thomas Robinson as named in 1891 census died 1895, registered under that name
      My father and his siblings did not know any grand parents. The rumour got around that we were descended from gypsies. Travelers at least unless Ellen Birmingham was a true gypsie. I doubt I'll ever know for certain.

[PommieG]

My attempt to break down a brickwall has failed. Of course I have many of these, in fact one on every family line.Most are in the 1700's, some 1600's and one or two in 1500's.That's what makes genealogy so interesting. While learning about 'who' you discover what they were involved in.Thomas Robertson and Ellen Birmingham are my only wall in 1800's,
     The discussion here as been great. A lot of people searching for a breakthrough. The result is that now I'm doubtful about the identity of my 2x great grandmother. What I have found is the tradition of gypsie or traveller ancestry is true but attributed to the wrong family.
Thanks anyway.