General question re Army "standards" in 1936

[CaroleW]

Bit lengthy but please bear with me 

Back in 2021 my cousins daughter was contacted following a DNA match. 

As she lives in Oz - I did the research for her and confirmed her grandfather (my uncle) had fathered a child by a married woman back in 1936.  He was 19yrs old when the child was born & serving at Jellalabad Barracks in Wiltshire when the birth was registered.  The child was born & registered in Lancashire in an area where there was (& still is) an Army barracks & would have been conceived late 1935 so he must have been stationed in Lancs at that time.

Child was registered in the married womans name but my uncle was present when the birth was registered & his signature on the register matches that on other military documents.  (I bought a copy of the original birth registration entry)

She now has his WW2 service record which shows he enlisted in the Royal Marines in 1939 but makes no mention of any previous service.  There is a statement from a civilian employer showing he was employed 1936-1939 & saying they are unaware of any previous military service.

Now (finally) to my question.

He would have probably had to seek special leave to travel from Wiltshire to Lancashire to register the birth & had to give a reason.    Could that have resulted in disciplinary action (conduct unbecoming etc) & he was either dismissed or resigned? 

If so - why would his previous service plus any disciplinary action not be shown on his WW2 service record?

[Andy J2022]

First of all the Royal Marines are not part of the Army, so they have completely separate records of service. If your uncle didn't declare his earlier service, the Royal Marines wouldn't have gone looking for any records from the Army.

Then looking at your question about leave to go to register the birth, there is no reason why he couldn't have applied for leave in the normal way. If he hadn't wanted to mention the birth to the Army he didn't have to. And even if the Army knew, it was a pretty common occurrence and he wouldn't have been in any trouble as a result. At most he might have had to make an allotment from his pay as maintenance to the mother.

As for why he appears to have left the Army by 1936, there could be any number of reasons. A lot would depend on when he joined up, but his reckonable service would have started at his 18th birthday. If he joined up as a junior soldier (under the age of 18) he would have had the right to leave on reaching his 18th birthday. He might have only been on a three year engagement or he could have bought himself out. I don't think you need to assume he was kicked out, although clearly that is one explanation.

I'm assuming the birth certificate didn't mention his unit, just his address. Jellalabad Barracks is in Tidworth which is a large garrison that would have contained many units, so we can't really pin down which regiment or corps he might have been in. If you know the name of the barracks in Lancashire that might be helpful as usually there might only be one or two units in a single barracks in a county town for instance. If you can find out his unit it would be worth going back to the MOD - the Army this time - and getting his record of service for that earlier period.

[CaroleW]

Thank you for your response & the info - much appreciated

The child was conceived & born in Preston Lancs.  My uncle never drove in his life & was born & brought up in Liverpool.

I always felt he must have been been stationed at Fulwood Barracks Preston at the time of the conception but had moved to Jellalabad Barracks by the time of the birth/registration.  Because no records exist pre 1936 & as there is no rank or service identification on the birth cert we have no further info

Within the family - we were all aware of his service in the Royal Marines but always assumed he enlisted pre 1939. 

[Andy J2022]

During the 1930s Fulwood Barracks was home to the depots of both the Loyal North Lancs Regiment and the East Lancashire Regiment. This was where their recruits were trained. That would have taken around 12 - 14  weeks after which the trained soldier would have gone off to join his regiment's 1st or 2nd battalion. However there was also a depot of the Royal Field Artillery at Fulwood prior to 1924 but I'm not sure if there continued to be a Royal Artillery presence in the barracks during the 1930s. If there were gunners there also, that complicates the issue of what his Army unit might have been.

The 1st battalion of the Loyals were deployed to Cawpore in India in 1932 then to Palestine in 1936 and on their return to Britain in 1937, they were stationed in Tidworth. This seems to rule them out as his unit. The 2nd battalion of the Loyals is a much better bet: they were in Tidworth from 1933 to 1937 (they would have handed over their accommodation in Tidworth to the returning 1st battalion). In 1937 they went to Shanghai in China, although it would seem that, if they were your uncle's regiment, he wouldn't have gone with them.

I think we can discount the East Lancs as being his regiment. The Ist battalion were stationed in Catterick over the relevent period and the 2nd battalion were in Hong Kong followed by India.

As you can see from the aerial photograph of the barracks, on this website, it was quite a large place: https://www.blogpreston.co.uk/2016/11/fulwood-barracks-from-the-beginning-a-short-history/
 
It might be worth contacting the Lancashire Infantry museum in case they have any information about your uncle. However your best bet is to try the MOD again.

[CaroleW]

Hi Andy & thank you so much for that very helpful reply.  I have emailed my cousins daughter with the link to this post so she can read all your info. 

My uncle went on to marry some years later & had 2 children - one now living in Australia & the other still here in England.  It came as quite a shock to them to discover they had an unknown half brother who had sadly died by the time they found out about him. 

Many thanks once again

[garden genie]

Can I just add that there is no reason why he had to be stationed in Lancashire. Weekend leaves were available and train services were reliable back then. My mother was stationed in Gloucester during the war and regularly took weekend leaves at home in Altrincham. Your uncle may have been doing the same in 1935.

[CaroleW]

Thank you but his roots were in Liverpool.  He never owned a car so to meet a married woman from Preston he would have had to be living in that area given the travelling distance between Liverpool & Preston.  This is why Fulwood Barracks seemed the likeliest explanation.

We have no idea if it was a one night stand or an actual relationship but although her husband brought the child up he always knew he was not the father.   

[CaroleW]

Apologies - My cousin has reminded me that the original birth cert has my uncles details as follows:

Private 3853843 The Loyal Regiment of Jellalabad Barracks Tidworth

[Andy J2022]

That's great confirmation of my theory. With those details your cousin could apply to the MOD for the records of his earlier service prior to WW2.