Author Topic: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families  (Read 589 times)

Offline brigidmac

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How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« on: Thursday 23 February 23 12:51 GMT (UK) »
I can use the DNA painter chart for regular relationships but have come across some

1)skewing of amounts with descendants of cousins ...
instead of having 8 grandparents children of cousins only have 6

Do cousins childre from the mutual set of grandparents generally have a higher match than usual first cousins

2)Also where sets of brothers marry sets of cousins
Each child will still have 8 grandparents but only 8 greatgrandparents

How high do those cousins and 2nd cousins show on matches
And would DNA results on ancestry automatically show up as coming from both sides or would you have to choose that option over paternal /maternal sides .

Does anyone have any examples from recent generations ?

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Biggles50

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #1 on: Friday 24 February 23 00:15 GMT (UK) »
DNA Painter does have a caveat in the text about it assuming no Pedigree Collapse & Endogamy.

This probably does not answer your questions but its the best I can do after a long, long day.

Offline brigidmac

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #2 on: Friday 24 February 23 00:23 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Biggles

People rarely mention endogamy

+ I've never heard of pedigree collapse
Is it a polite way of saying incest.?

Im  looking for concrete examples of people who do have "endogamous relationships" or cousin marriages  in their trees and how much difference it makes  to cm amounts
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Ruskie

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #3 on: Friday 24 February 23 03:36 GMT (UK) »
Google is your friend Brigid  ;D

https://isogg.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse


Offline brigidmac

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #4 on: Friday 24 February 23 08:45 GMT (UK) »
Ruskie
It's not a reflex for me to Google
I have an aversion to internet surfing

Especially on my phone when print is small

 much prefer the human responses .

But I now have a hey Google machine
I asked the question  "what is a pedigree collapse ? "

This was her cheerful reply ..auto recorded 

"Reproduction between two individuals who knowingly or unknowingly share an ancestor causes the number of individuals On tree to be smaller than it would  otherwise be ..."

 Auto dictatione can't keep up with  my Hey Google answer speed !

This answer didn't cover effect on DNA so I reworded the question

Hey Google what is the effect on DNA of pedigree collapse

"Always results in elevated amounts of dna.... Between
 the further away the collapse the less effect.

 Hey rootschatters... do any of you have examples of cm amounts from descendants of cousins  A B + C with D your direct ancestor 
AB C D  from same grandparents
  where A + B  married each other  C + D married outside the family

This seems to be quite a common occurrence
Within Jewish families. Mormon Utah families and families from small villages .

My Scottish grandmother said she'd met grandad at a cousin's wedding !
I've been looking for their mutual cousins
I think it was her cousin who married his brother
So that line of their  descendants will have a closer link to me because from my father's paternal + maternal  sides but not from endogamy





 
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline phil57

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #5 on: Friday 24 February 23 10:18 GMT (UK) »
As you appear to have discovered Brigid, it may elevate the amount of shared DNA beyond what is expected for the relationship, or in other words, the relationship could appear to be closer than it actually is.

It is quite common in small or remote rural communities, back when people didn't travel much and often married within the local community. I have numerous examples in my tree from my ancestors in Somerset, and to a slightly lesser degree, in Lincolnshire.

As my uncle wrote in a letter setting out his recollections of growing up in a small Somerset village in the 1920s, all of the children that he went to school with were related to him and one another in some way.

It has caused me several difficulties in attempting to use DNA matches to corroborate my research. Often, on the face of it, the relationship is straightforward and leads to the expected common ancestor, but a wider investigation of the matches' ancestry reveals intervening relationships to other families from whom I am also descended, making it impossible to be certain whether the match is wholly, partly, or not at all how it initially appears.

Access to numerous related individuals' DNA for comparison in a chromosome browser might make it possible to draw more precise conclusions, but trying to arrange that is akin to attempting a manned mission to Mars in a model T Ford!

On one hand, you may find matches to more distant ancestors than would normally be expected, but then assigning them correctly could be nigh on impossible due to several intervening instances of pedigree collapse.
Stokes - London and Essex
Hodges - Somerset
Murden - Notts
Humphries/Humphreys from Montgomeryshire

Offline brigidmac

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #6 on: Friday 24 February 23 11:13 GMT (UK) »
ancestry used to offer alternative suggestions for thru lines
it doesnt seem to do that any more

one advantage of the endogamous jewish + utah DNA connections i have found

  is  shared matches show up to people with low CM matches (around 10cm) which can lead to finding a mutual set of ancestors if they have a well researched tree and my higher matches have small trees or closed trees

In other cases rarely get shared matches showing to people with LESS than a 25cm match
sometimes if they match my aunt or mother  but i dont come up as a shared match with her I double check my dna and i also match to a small amaount but we dont appear as MUTUAL dna matches to the person
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #7 on: Friday 24 February 23 11:21 GMT (UK) »
but a specific case is an adoptee ..abandonned baby so no names on birth cert

ive not seen results but hes told me hes only getting matches to 2 lines

+ they are the same lines as his wife !
could accidentally have married a family member one of his wifes  maternal cousins comes up as 1-2 cousin level to him the matches to her paternal line are more distant

but no other connections are showing

the husband is 20 years older than his wife
i wonder if he could be an unknown uncle .
or cousin from a cousin marriage
hopefully he is not a full brother adopted before parents marriage I wont suggest that as a possibility !

 what else would explain matching both of his wife's parents lines ?
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline melba_schmelba

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Re: How are DNA matches affected by marriages within families
« Reply #8 on: Friday 24 February 23 11:27 GMT (UK) »
I can use the DNA painter chart for regular relationships but have come across some

1)skewing of amounts with descendants of cousins ...
instead of having 8 grandparents children of cousins only have 6

Do cousins childre from the mutual set of grandparents generally have a higher match than usual first cousins

2)Also where sets of brothers marry sets of cousins
Each child will still have 8 grandparents but only 8 greatgrandparents

How high do those cousins and 2nd cousins show on matches
And would DNA results on ancestry automatically show up as coming from both sides or would you have to choose that option over paternal /maternal sides .

Does anyone have any examples from recent generations ?
In both cases of intermarrying, yes relatives will show up higher than usual. It's very hard to say how much, as I am not sure anyone has studied it to the detail that the Shared cM Project has.