Non-Church of Scotland documents?

[scottishlad]

Hi everyone! I’m having trouble finding any documentation on my 5x great grandfather George. Aside from being listed as the father of my 4x great grandfather Isaac on his marriage/death certificate (along with his siblings), I cannot find any information.

I cannot find any documentation regarding his birth, marriage or death. At first I thought it was because his wife was born in Ireland, and perhaps they were married there and that’s why I can’t find a Scottish record. However I’ve had no luck in Ireland archives either.

Now I’m wondering if this has anything to do with him possibly not being a member of the Church of Scotland? Presumably he died sometime prior to 1851 as he’s not listed on the census that year and his wife is listed as head of household. Nor does he appear on the 1861 or 1871 census which his wife does. I’m unable to find an 1841 census either, but his last son (that I can find) was born 1840, so I suppose possible he died prior to 1841 too and why I can’t find him listed there either.

Anyway, I’ve noticed that my 4x great grandfather, George’s son, was listed as “regularly married”, but it does not specify in accordance with Church of Scotland practices like I’ve seen with others (as well as another marriage listed on his same form). His siblings are also not part of Church of Scotland, but breakaway groups (which is sort of odd seeing as I can still find those documents even when filtering by Church of Scotland on Scotland’s People).

Could this be why I can’t find any documentation on him? Were they simply not recorded/not preserved because it was potentially a smaller breakaway denomination he was a part of? Has anybody come across a similar situation?

I hope this isn’t where the trail ends, but I fear it may be, and I’m wondering if it’s because he wasn’t part of the Church or Scotland.

Thank you so much for reading! Any and all help is much appreciated.

[CraigM63]

I guess several questions come to mind, the first of which is beyond being head of the household in 1851, and being listed in the 1861 and 1871 censuses, what is his wife's marital status in those censuses, married or widowed? If it is widowed then it builds a case for him having died before the census in 1851.

Pre-1855 non-conformist and Catholic records are separate from the Church of Scotland records on ScotlandsPeople, but I presume you have gone through the three separate sets of records when searching the pre-1855 OPR records. The other and most important thing to remember is that firstly the OPR records are not complete, and secondly not every baptism, calling of the banns, and death were recorded in a given parish. The only sure date I have for my 4x great grandfather is the calling of the banns for his marriage in 1811, I can only infer his approximate birth year from his age in the 1841 census, and that he died sometime between 1841 and 1851, because his wife is described as a widow in the 1851 census.   

[scottishlad]

Yeah I had also thought the record may just simply not exist. We are talking about 200+ year old documents and they may also have just never been recorded in the first place.

Unfortunately somebody (I guess the census collector) marked a large “x” through her status, but I can see enough to tell it doesn’t say “Mar.” like the others. I believe it says “Wid”. So I would be confident in saying she was widowed in 1851.

The issue is I can’t find an 1841 census for her. It’s possible her husband was dead even at that point, but filtering by her and the children hasn’t resulted in anything yet.

Thank you for the reply! I’ll just have to keep digging haha

[goldie61]

I can't see anywhere in your post that you have actually named him, apart from 'George', or named his wife.
What were their full names, and what pieces of evidence do you have, especially for him, so far?

[Gadget]

Welcome to Rootschat 

As goldie says, we can't really help unless you can give us more information about George and his family. 

Before 1855, BMD information is limited - for e.g., it has been estimated that only about 30% of the records of marriages are available.  The Kirk Sessions records for relevant parishes (now available on SP) might be worth looking through to see if there are any accounts of the family.

If you give more details of the family, we will try to help,

Gadget

[Forfarian]

In theory the Church of Scotland was supposed to keep records of all baptisms and marriages, regardless of denomination of those involved, but in practice this didn't happen, and even if it did, some registers have been lost. So there are many gaps in the C of S records.

There are also religious denominations whose surviving registers of baptisms and marriages are not readily available. For example the Episcopal Church of Scotland records are not even all in one place, let alone digitised and online.

Some of the registers in the care of the National Records of Scotland are also unavailable because the NRS has been unable to establish who actually owns them, and/or to obtain permission from the owners to digitise them.

I have not investigated the availability of, for instance, Baptist, Methodist, Congregational or Society of Friends records, or any non-Christian records that may exist.

So yes, there is a chance that there might be some other record in whch your George is mentioned, but it is a small chance, and it isn't going to be easy to find them.

[GR2]

As others have said, if you give us more detail (names, places etc.) it will be easier to point you in the right direction. You say his wife is down as head of the household in the 1851 census, but does the census say she's a widow?

[scottishlad]

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t think anybody would actually help research haha well it’s George McKenzie (Tinsmith), wife is Bridget Townsley (sometimes Townsen/d or Townsbey). She is also listed as Betsy and Margaret. She is widowed in 1851, but I can’t find an 1841 census. Their last child was born 1840 which is why I’m guessing it’s possible George could have died right after, and that’s why I can’t find an 1841 census with him listed.

I’ve been working on filtering by Bridget and the children, but there are many many documents still, so I’m doing more research to try and figure out where they would have been at that time. I know their youngest son John was born 1840 in Perthshire Perth, so I assume they must have still be somewhat in that area. Although they were traveling tinsmiths so I’m not sure how much ground they could cover in roughly a years time.

Based on documents I have of Bridget I estimate she was born sometime between 1797-1801 in Ireland. George I have nothing on. My only proof of his existence are being named on Bridget’s death certificate, as well as those of his children. I’m presuming George was born sometime between 1777 and 1806 based on the years his children were born and him having to have been old/vital enough to father them in their respective birth years (although that’s just to cast as wide a net as possible on Scotland’s People, I assume he would have been closer to 1800 and therefore closer in age to Bridget).

I don’t have any idea what his parents were named, though clearly each generation seemed to use the same names, and always named one after the father. Which is why I’m assuming I haven’t found all of their children because I can’t find a child named George, but surely they probably would have had one. Also, the oldest children I can find, Alexander and Robert, were born about 1823, next is Isaac 1835. Surely they would have had kids during this 12 year gap, but I just can’t find the documents to prove it.

Anyway, any and all information you may be able to provide would be greatly appreciated. I’ve looked on ancestry at other trees, and many attribute a George McKenzie died 1847 as “the” George, but there’s no other identifiable information to prove that. They’re just assuming because he died pre 1851 and was in Glasgow that it’s him. I’ve also seen people list him as having fathered 100 children so I don’t fully trust other member trees haha

Anyway thank you again!

[brigidmac]

a couple more things to consider ..george could have been a middle names

(can you list the names of the * children you have found already )

the wives are in fact different people and he remarried between births of some children ..have you seen their birth records.