Date of photo, can it be Christmas John, 1875-1949, Rhondda

[Gadget]

I'd say early 40s - maybe to 45 but not in their 50s

Gadget

PS - people looked older then

[Deirdre784]

Thanks Gadget, so if 1920s as jim1 suggested, Christmas and Mary would both have been 45 in 1920, so it could be them (they were the grand and great grandparents of the family i'm helping - started with one person but now 6 newly found relatives in a group). Two of them had the same photos, but few others, so it seems quite likely that this is them. Sadly, no-one left (that we know of) who ever met them. Brilliant to have photos to add to bmd and census data though.

Mary died in 1926 so obviously before then 

[arthurk]

The soft collar for men came in during the 1920s. This is the type that has a kind of crease going along it, often held in position by a pin behind the knot of the tie.

[Deirdre784]

Thanks arthurk, sadly i know nothing about fashion (men's or women's) but am i right in thinking that the photos of both men have this pin behind the knot of the tie? Christmas was apparently known to be 'dapper' when going about in his trap.

[jim1]

The collar bar became popular with Officers during WW1
& quickly became mainstream for men in the 20's hence my date.

[Gadget]

The tie pin or collar bar clipped in the collar beneath the knot is a good indicator of the date. There are a few threads discussing this. I have photos of my father and a cousin of my mother's wearing them - 1918-early 1920s.

Add -sorry Jim, missed your post. I'd written this and went off to look for a link!

Here's one

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=869919.msg7409486#msg7409486

[Deirdre784]

Thanks jim1 and Gadget; seems conclusive that the photos are in the right time frame, and therefore quite likely to be of Christmas and Mary. Much appreciated.

edit - thanks for the link Gadget, the tie pin is much clearer in those pics.

[arthurk]

Re the style of collar - I was getting my information from Jayne Shrimpton's 'How to get the most from Family Pictures', where she writes "some collars still have a starched appearance in the 1920s but increasingly the softer, un-starched, pointed collar is seen, identifiable from the crease in the points" (p.139).

Unfortunately I'd overlooked her comment on the previous page: "From the mid-1910s onwards, softer un-starched collars also begin to occur in photographs, these becoming common after the war". She then refers to a photo in the book which is dated precisely as July 1915, where one of the men clearly has a collar of this type.

So, apologies for misleading slightly.

[Deirdre784]

No problem arthurk, makes it more likely it’s Christmas.