Author Topic: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks  (Read 594 times)

Offline Loppy01

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Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« on: Monday 13 March 23 16:40 GMT (UK) »
I’m searching for info on my Grandfather Walter Welfare who was an “acting conductor in the Indian Army in 1943 and then a WO1 Royal Army Service Corps in 1943?
I know he was in Quetta in 1930/1931 as my own Mother was born during that time. What I don’t  know is why he would have been in India during that time. Would he have enlisted into the Indian Army or been transferred from the British Army?
My understanding is that he was at some time in the Somerset Light Infantry but unsure over what period of time

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #1 on: Monday 13 March 23 20:54 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat  :D

I've found a brief transcript regarding Walter but it doesn't say a great deal.

Number: 3381199; Highest Rank: T/Conductor; Regiment: Indian Armoured Corps C; Indian Unattached List; Dev R; Date of commission: 6 Feb 1923; Date of release: died 9 Oct 1945

This was from Find My Past.

I can see that he is buried in the Rangoon War Cemetery in Myanmar.  Husband of Lucy Mary Welfare, of Taunton, Somerset.

This could be where the suggestion that he was in the Somerset Light Infantry comes from.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #2 on: Monday 13 March 23 21:03 GMT (UK) »
Lucy and Walter evidently had three children all born in India, two girls and a boy.

1936, 1932 and 1942 as per Family Search.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #3 on: Monday 13 March 23 21:22 GMT (UK) »
Just found another record for a Walter Welfare with the same number of 3381199, so I assume this is your grandfather.

He was evidently a Member of the Order of the British Empire. (I later found this to have been awarded in 1943 as per the London Gazette dated 2 June 1943 Page 2429).

Born in London so this looks like his birth record from the GRO:-

WELFARE, WALTER  FREDERICK     HARRISS 
GRO Reference: 1892  J Quarter in STGEORGE HANOVER SQUARE  Volume 01A  Page 441

His regiment is stated as being The Devonshire Regt, Royal Army Service Corps.  So perhaps the Somerset Light Infantry may be wrong?  Difficult to know for sure.

His CWCG citation gives his Secondary Unit, Regiment as attd. (attached) Indian Army Corps of Clerks
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire


Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #4 on: Monday 13 March 23 21:30 GMT (UK) »
You may already have this but this is his marriage record:-

Marriages Jun 1931
Vickery    Lucy M    Welfare    Taunton    5c   669    
Welfare    Walter    Vickery    Taunton    5c   669

Must have gone to India fairly quickly after if their first child was born in 1932.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline Loppy01

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #5 on: Monday 13 March 23 22:35 GMT (UK) »
Thank you that’s helpful. The strange thing is my Mum was born in February 1931 and in Quetta India so clearly before her parents married. I am aware she then lived there for 12 years before coming home with her Mum Lucy and 2 other siblings who had been born there. My Grandfather Walter never returned home as it seems he was in a road accident 6 weeks after the War ended and died and is buried in Burma (Myanmar)
It’s the period 1931 until the start of the War we are unsure of what he was doing in India. He was part of the V Force for a time gaining information and disrupting the Japanese forces.
Of course this is mostly here say as my Mum and her siblings are no longer with us.


Offline garstonite

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 14 March 23 07:12 GMT (UK) »
a possible explanation
Burma
The Allied Troops that went in to Burma were actually led by an Indian jungle warfare fighter - he was responsible for all the different hats each army wore so that in the jungle they could be recognised - hats clipped up to the left - to the right - berries of different colours etc etc - he STOPPED any soldiers wearing metal Helmets as when it rained the noise on their helmets could be heard from quite a distance away
English
Australian
New Zealanders
Gurkhas
Indian
Thai
Burmese
China

ALL fought in Burma for the Allies and all wore different Headware

in a roundabout way I am saying british Troops were in India getting special training for Jungle Warfare 1942-1945
...........
copied and Pasted
1942 -1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_campaign
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 14 March 23 12:58 GMT (UK) »
With great respect, garstonite, your 'possible explanation' really just serves to confuse. What on earth has all that got to do with Walter Welfare?

As others have established, much about Walter Welfare's life has been established: his birth, marriage, children and his date of death. The part which the OP seems to be most interested in is his military service. Unfortunately although there are records which are online (FindMyPast, CWGC India Office Records (IOR) at BL) some of these are confusing. To take one example, the IOR entry (IOR/L/MIL/14/17683) is quoted as saying that he was commissioned on 6 Feb 1923. This is either a mistranscription or it refers to some other type of commission. I suspect this may have been his enlistment date. The other error in the IOR entry is that it says he was attached to the Indian Armoured Corps C. This should read Indian Army Corps of Clerks.

From Casualty Report No.1895 (as at 27 Oct 1945) in WO 417/98 in which his death was reported, it is noted that he was attached to IACC HQ Lushai Bde and his death was due to accident. His full Army number was S/3381199 - the S signifying that he was in the Supply branch of the Royal Army Service Corps rather than the clerical branch where the prefix would have been SS. However he could have changed trade during his Army career.

It is clear to me that he first joined the Army in the Devonshire Regiment. This could have been around 1920 or 1921 when he was about 18. He then transferred to the Royal Army Service Corps at some point and would have been trained in his chosen trade. There is no indication of when he was first attached to the Indian Army, but I suggest this could have been around 1940 when it became clear to the War Office that there was an urgent need to expand the Indian Army in order to confront the Japanese threat to India. This would have required an influx of experienced British officers and soliders to assist in training and running the larger Indian Army.

Walter would have been in the Army for around 18 years in 1940 so he was probably already at least a Warrant Officer class 2. Exactly what area his skills were in is unclear from the records we have so far; he might possibly have been a senior supply specialist or a superintending clerk. Either of these specialisations would have made him eligible to be appointed as a Conductor*, which is just a senior Warrant Officer Class1 not holding a Regimental Sergeant Major post. It would appear from the Casualty Report that he was serving on the staff of the HQ of the Lushai Bde. His award of the MBE in 1943 indicates that he was already a Warrant Officer at that stage because soldiers below that rank are normally awarded the BEM, not MBE.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the whole picture will become infinitely clearer if the OP applies for his grandfather's service record from the MOD (details on how to do this here: https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records )

* more on conductors here. Walter Welfare is included in their Roll of Honour.

Offline still_looking

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Re: Walter welfare Conductor Indian Army Corp Clerks
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 14 March 23 13:20 GMT (UK) »
Going by Girl Guide's info about a birth in 1892 he would have been 28 or 29 in 1920/21 so maybe a possibility that the reference to the Somerset Light Infantry was for service in WW1 and he chose to re-enlist later?

S_L