Evans Thomas and Simpson

[Talacharn]

I and trying to trace two Thomas sisters. Both married Healy brothers who are linked to my family, and I have traced them. I am looking to see if the Thomas family are somehow related and cannot to make sense of some names.

Mary Kezia Thomas . mmn Evans . Apr-Jun 1909 . Carmarthen . Volume 11a . Page 1419
Lydia Jane Thomas . mmn Evans . Jan-Mar 1912 . Carmarthen . Volume 11a . Page 2774.
The marriage certificate gave their father’s name as Jenkin Thomas.
 
They are on the 1911 Census in St Peter Carmarthen.
William Mark Barnett . Head . M . 30 . St Peter, Carmarthenshire . Boatman
Rachel Gladys Barnett . Wife . F . 23 . Llynwda, Carmarthenshire
Mary Ann Barnett . Daughter . F . 3 . St Peter, Carmarthenshire
Jenkin Thomas . Lodger . M . 36 . Aberdare, Glamorganshire . Coal Miner
Diana Ann Thomas . Wife . F . 27 . Corio, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Henry Thomas . Son . M . 4 . Pontardawe, Glamorganshire
Mary Kenziah Thomas . Daughter . F . 2 . St Peter, Carmarthenshire
RG14 . Piece/Folio: 237 . Schedule Type: 118

Rachel Gladys and Diana Ann were Evans sisters.
 
1901 Census: Richmond Terrace . St Peter Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Simpson . Head . M . 37 . Hanley, Staffordshire . House Painter
Mary Simpson . Wife . F . 38 . Caio, Carmarthenshire
Diana Evans . Daughter . F . 18 . Llanwrda, Carmarthenshire
Rachel G Evans . Daughter . F . 13 . Llanwrda, Carmarthenshire
D T Simpson . Son . M . 7 . Llandilo, Carmarthenshire
R Elsie Simpson . Daughter . F . 4 . Llandilo, Carmarthenshire
Piece/Folio: 81 . Schedule Type: 315

Confusion: Thomas Henry Thomas . mmn Simpson . Jul-Sep 1907 . Pontardawe . Volume 11a . Page 1037 . Did Jenkin Thomas father Thomas Henry with someone called Simpson or has Diana Ann given her step-father’s name? The birth certificate may help, but it is not that important and I am only asking if anyone can find further information online.

Confusion: I found a marriage 6 months before Thomas Henry was born: Jenkin Thomas . Diana Ann Grenfell . Oct-Dec 1906 . Carmarthen . Volume 11a . Page 2074. It should be Diana Ann Evans. It seems an unlikely transcription error. Should the marriage certificate clearly show her name as Grenfell, ordering it will not help. I cannot find a marriage to a Grenfell. Having checked the GRO with variables, there is no one born Diana Ann Grenfell, or Diana Ann Evans mmn Grenfell. It might be coincidence and the wrong marriage. Am I missing something?

I cannot find a marriage for Thomas Simpson and Mary Evans.
There is no registration for the two Simpson children.
In 1891, the Simpson family are in Clase, Swansea, with a Thomas family lodging. From the mmn Simpson they were related. Unnamed Thomas, Sarah Ann Thomas and children Willie, James H and an unnamed female Thomas.

1891 Census: Workhouse . Victoria Crescent . Llandingat, Carmarthenshire
Mary Evans . Pauper . F . 32 . Carmarthenshire
Diana A Evans . Pauper . F . 9 . Carmarthenshire
Rachel Evans . Pauper . F . 4 . Carmarthenshire
Margaret Evans . Pauper . F . 53 . Carmarthenshire
RG12 . Piece/Folio: 4503/ 11

[QueenoftheWest]

Breaking this down:

Confusion: Thomas Henry Thomas . mmn Simpson . Jul-Sep 1907 . Pontardawe . Volume 11a . Page 1037 . Did Jenkin Thomas father Thomas Henry with someone called Simpson or has Diana Ann given her step-father’s name? The birth certificate may help, but it is not that important and I am only asking if anyone can find further information online.

From the Llangiwg parish register:

29th October 1907: Thomas Henry, son of Jenkin & Dianah Anne Thomas, abode: Craig Llanguicke, father's occupation: collier.

There is no registration for the two Simpson children.

This is one mysterious family; Thomas Simpson was actually Thomas Arthur Brock!:

Thomas Arthur Brock married Mary Evans on March 22nd 1895 in Llandilofawr. She was a spinster, he is down as a widower.

D T Simpson, Son, M, 7, Llandilo, Carmarthenshire
R Elsie Simpson, Daughter, F, 4, Llandilo, Carmarthenshire

David Thomas, born April 13th 1894, baptised 18th September 1900 in St Peter, son of Thomas Arthur & Mary Brock, abode: Parkyvelvet Cottage, Mansel Street, father's occupation: painter. He was registered as Brock mmn Evans.

Rosanna Elsie Brock, born August 1st 1896, details same as above. She was registered as Brock mmn Evans.

In 1911, Thomas Arthur, Mary, David Thomas and Rosanna Elsie are still living in St Peter, but now they are using the surname Brock.

Queenie 

[QueenoftheWest]

Confusion: I found a marriage 6 months before Thomas Henry was born: Jenkin Thomas . Diana Ann Grenfell . Oct-Dec 1906 . Carmarthen . Volume 11a . Page 2074. It should be Diana Ann Evans. It seems an unlikely transcription error. Should the marriage certificate clearly show her name as Grenfell, ordering it will not help. I cannot find a marriage to a Grenfell. Having checked the GRO with variables, there is no one born Diana Ann Grenfell, or Diana Ann Evans mmn Grenfell. It might be coincidence and the wrong marriage. Am I missing something?

I can't seem to access the GRO to check, but there is a Diana Ann Evans registered in Llandovery in 1882 and the mother's maiden name is blank. This seems to tie in with her mother Mary being recorded as spinster on her marriage. If Diana was illegitimate, she could have made up a father or perhaps she knew her biological father's birth surname and wanted to use it?

Queenie 

[Talacharn]

Thanks Queenie,

The GRO was not available this morning, and why I did not give the mmn of one child.
Are they on strike?

I was confused, but even more so now.
Within my family there are travellers. They married into my family, though the Williams bunch were hawkers of fish. Very similar lifestyles and the amount of time spent in courtrooms. Some travellers were referred to as Badger, even using it as an alias, with Brock being an alternative. I am aware many Simpson families were travelling hawkers.

I need a cup of tea and time to look deeper into your findings.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Here's Mary Brock having a bit of a to-do - wondering if the other side are relations of their future son in law

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3645750/3645754/27/

And a sad story from 1900

INQUEST.—On Thursday, the 13th inst., Mr T. Walters, coroner for the Borough of Carmarthen, held an inquest at the Shire Hall into the death of Alfred Elijah Brock (aged 51 weeks), the son of Mr T. A. Brock, painter, of Parkyvelvet Cottage, Carmarthen. Evidence was given by Mary Brock, the mother. She said that on Tuesday, the 11th, the child became very sick and she had sent for Dr Harries, who had been attending her before She sent her 17 year old daughter. Dr Harries was very busy at the time and could not come. He prescribed for the child; she gave it a dose of the medicine, but the child vomited it back. About 5 p.m.. the following day, the child became worse. She sent for Dr Williams, who arrived in about half an hour after he had been sent for. The child died just as he came into the house. Dr Williams said that death was due to exhaustion consequent on vomiting.—The Jury returned a verdict accordingly.

[Talacharn]

Having placed so much information in my opening post, I had removed some in not wanting to overwhelm. I would never have made the Brock connection. It is no wonder I could not find a registration for the two Simpson children. In my wider family, I have come across name changes and aliases in wanting to hide their identity, when an alias or two, was quite common. Mary was not married, so spinster is correct as she is single on earlier census records. Diana Ann Evans registered in Llandovery 1882 with mmn blank I had seen and assumed it was her.

There are a few newspaper articles naming Arthur Brock as Painter. I saw the one about Albert Elijah dying at 51 weeks in 1900. The is also a dog with no licence in 1908 when living in Mill-street, Carmarthen.

I had not seen the article of ‘Mary Brock having a bit of a to-do’. My understanding is that they were sisters.

Now I want to go back further with this family.
There was another census record from the same workhouse and I wondered if they were related.
1901 Census: Llandingat, Carmarthenshire
Rachel Evans . Pauper Inmate . F . 19 . Llandovery, Carmarthenshire . General Servant (Farm)
Dinah Evans . Pauper Inmate . F . 50 . Llanbadarn Fawr, Cardiganshire
Piece/Folio: 14 . Schedule Type: 105

The only birth, but not Llanbadarn Fawr
Christening: Diana Evans . Female
12 Sep 1847 . Llanddewi-Brefi, Cardiganshire
Parents: Thomas and Mary Evans

Marriage: St David Parish Register Llanddewibrefi Cardiganshire
13 Apr 1825 . Thomas Evans . Mary Jones

Dinah Evans, . mmn Janes 
Jul-Sep 1856 . Aberystwyth . Volume 11b . Page 70

If travellers, Llanddewi-Brefi to Aberystwyth could be part of their patch.
1851 Census: Tregaron . Cardiganshire
Thomas Evans . 52 1799 . Head . Married . Llanfairclydogan, Cardiganshire . Ag Lab
Mary Evans . 49 1802 . Married . Wife . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
Jane Evans . 22 1829 . Daughter . Unmarried . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
William Evans . 14 1837 . Son . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
John Evans . 10 1841 . Son . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
Israel Evans . 8 1843 . Son . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
Dianah Evans . 4 1847 . Daughter . Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio 2487 / 284
William, John and Israel, all with mmn Jones were registered in Tregaron.

[Cas (stallc)]

1911- looks like same workhouse as1901 in Llandingat, Carmarthenshire. No Rachel.

Dina Evans, inmate, single, age 59, born Llanbadarn, Cardiganshire. States - one leg at 51

Likely Death - Jun Q 1916   
Evans    Dinah    65    Llandovery    11a   1193   
 

Only 3 possible births for Rachel between 1880 -1884 Llandovery. (If born there)

EVANS, RACHEL    mmn   DAVIES 
GRO Reference: 1881  S Quarter in LLANDOVERY  Volume 11A  Page 769

EVANS, RACHEL  REBECCA     -  no mother listed
GRO Reference: 1882  D Quarter in LLANDOVERY  Volume 11A  Page 757

EVANS, RACHEL  ISABELLA  mmn   RICHARDS 
GRO Reference: 1883  S Quarter in LLANDOVERY  Volume 11A  Page 797

Possible 1891
Piece: 4503, Folio: 9, Page number: 9
Living Llandingat

Charles Leban, 74, Head,  Breconshire
Margaret Leban, 71   Wife Cayo, Carmarthen
Rachel Evan age 8, lodger, Llandovery

Leban on census together 1871/1881

Marriages Mar Q 1869   cert online
EVANS    Margaret        Llandovery    11a 755
Laban    Charles Joseph        Llandovery    11a 755    

Possible Death Sep Q 1894 
Leban    Charles    69    Llandovery    11a   457    

1901 Victoria Lane, Llandingat
Margaret Laban   82   Head, wid, shopkeeper, Caio, Carmarthenshire
Maggie Evans,10   Granddaughter, Llandovery, Carmarthenshire

Deaths Sep Q 1906   
LABAN    Margaret    84    Llandovery    11a   577

Possibly no connection Rachel/Dinah?

Cas

[Cas (stallc)]

Just incase you can see any connection 1861 for Margaret Leban.

1861 Stone Street, Llandingat
Piece: 4122, Folio: 8, Page number: 10

Margaret Evans   41   Head, Wid, charwoman Cayo, Carmarthenshire,
Hannah Evans 10   Daughter Cilycwm, Carmarthenshire,
Morgan Evans, 15   Son "
Margaret Evans,12   Daughter "
Margaret Thomas 14   Visitor, Llandovery, Carmarthenshire

Cas

[Talacharn]

Thanks Cas,
This will take some sorting out, but there are too many coincidences not to look. Leban is a new name. With Evans such a common name, there are further census records in that area of interest.

1841 Census: Stone Street . Llandingat, Carmarthenshire . Llandovery
John Hopkins . 52 . Carmarthenshire
Evan Evans . 25 . Carmarthenshire
Elizabeth Evans. 26 . Carmarthenshire
John Evans . 4 . Carmarthenshire
Edwin Evans . 3 1838 . Carmarthenshire
Anne Evans . 0 . Carmarthenshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio: 1386/5

Marriage: Evan Evans . Elizabeth Hopkins
28 Oct 1835 . Llandingat, Carmarthenshire . Page 26
No image available to see parents and witnesses.

Death: Evan Evans . 25   
Apr-Jun 1841 . Llandovery . Volume 26 . Page 441

1851 Census: Aberdare, Glamorganshire . Merthyr Tydfil
John Arthyr . 34 . Head . Abergwilly, Carmarthenshire
Eliza Arthyr . 35 . Wife . Llandovery, Carmarthenshire
John Evans . 14 . Son Llandovery, Carmarthenshire
Edwin Evans . 13 . Son . Merthyr Tydfil . Dragger Maker
Ann Evans . 10 . Daughter . Llandovery, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Arthyr . 4 . Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire
Catherine Arthyr . 1 . Aberdare, Glamorganshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio: 2460 / 69

John Evans . mmn Hopkins . Jan-Mar 1838 . Tregaron . Volume 27 . Page 53
Edwin Evans . mmn Hopkins . Apr-Jun 1838 . Merthyr Tydfil Union . Volume 26 . Page 368
Anne Evans . mmn Hopkins . Jan-Mar 1841 . Llandovery Union . Volume 26
Thomas Arthur . mmn Hopkins . Jan-Mar 1847 . Merthyr Tydfil . Volume 26 . Page 434
Catharine Arthur . mmn Hawkins . Jul-Sep 1849 . Merthyr Tydfil . Volume 26 . Page 393