Author Topic: When and where did Robert Gray die?  (Read 1085 times)

Offline JAKnighton

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When and where did Robert Gray die?
« on: Friday 24 March 23 14:57 GMT (UK) »
This is quite long, sorry!

My 5x great-grandparents, Robert Gray and Mary Barrass, were married on April 28, 1823 in Gateshead, County Durham.

They had the following children;

1. Richard Gray, baptised at All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne, on March 28, 1824.
2. Mary Ann Gray, baptised at St Hilda's, South Shields, on January 22, 1826.
3. Robert Gray, baptised at St Hilda's, South Shields, on December 5, 1827.
4. John Barras Gray, baptised at St Hilda's, South Shields, on March 7, 1830. Buried there December 16, 1830.
5. Jane Gray, baptised at St Hilda's, South Shields, on November 25, 1831.
6. Dorothy Gray, baptised at All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne, on February 23, 1834. My 4x great-grandmother.
7. Ralph Gray, born on April 9, 1838 in Newcastle upon Tyne, baptised at All Saints on May 13, 1838.

Mary also had a child before her marriage to Robert. His name was Edward Dodd Barrass, baptised on February 10, 1816 at St Alban's in Earsdon, Northumberland.

In the 1841 census, this family can be found living at East Ballast Hills in the Byker district of Newcastle upon Tyne. Robert's age, considering that ages on the 1841 census are rounded up to the nearest five, is given as 40 and his occupation is described as a labourer. He is recorded as having been born in the county of Northumberland.

You're probably wondering by now why this Northumberland family has been put in the Lanarkshire, Scotland board, so here is your answer:

By the 1851 census, Robert and his wife Mary had moved to Glasgow. They were living at 78 Waters Street. The two youngest children, Dorothy and Ralph, are living with them. Robert's age is given as 51, his birthplace is described as Northumberland, and his occupation is agricultural labourer.

Robert's wife Mary died on June 28, 1854 at 78 Waters Street and was buried the following day at Sighthill Cemetery.

In the 1861 census, Robert is living at 70 Stewart Street, Milton. He is living with his daughter, Mary Ann, her husband William Forbes, and their children. Robert's age is given as 60, his birthplace described as England, and no occupation is recorded.

That is the last confirmed record I have for Robert.



A search for the death of Robert Gray in the statutory death registers has turned up nothing so far. Since Robert Gray is a very common name, it's expensive to eliminate all the possible candidates. But a search for Robert Grays who born five years before/after 1800, and who died after 1861 in Glasgow, has not turned up the correct Robert Gray. Broader searches for Robert Grays of all ages hasn't found anything either.

There are deaths for Robert Grays with the correct estimated birth year in other parts of Scotland, but with no obvious links to those areas, I'm reluctant to spend the credits to check.


Last time we saw Robert he was living with his daughter Mary Ann and her family. That was in 1861. The interesting thing is that if we try to find Mary Ann in 1871, she is nowhere to be found. Her husband and younger children can be found but she isn't with them. In 1881, she can be found living on her own at 17 Broomhill Street. She died on November 20, 1887, found dead on 9 Brown Street, Port Dundas. Her husband was the informant, so it seems they were still in contact. Robert Gray was named as her father on the register and described as deceased, so that's evidence he was dead by 1887. Interestingly, on this death record, Robert's occupation is described as 'Glass Work Labourer', which doesn't fit with what we have seen so far, although three of his children including his step-son Edward were glass workers employed at the Glassworks in Port Dundas.

If Robert was last seen living with Mary in 1861, and Mary is missing in 1871, it is possible that Robert was still alive in 1871 and living with Mary, somewhere.

It's possible that Robert didn't die in Scotland. His oldest son Richard emigrated to the United States in 1866, and he may have arranged for his elderly father to join him and then Robert died there at some point. His youngest son Ralph also emigrated there in 1863.

His daughter Jane stayed in the north-east of England and died in Sunderland in 1905. Robert may have returned to England to live with Jane and died there, in which case I will have to sift through all the Robert Grays who were registered in that region. I'd be surprised if Jane wanted him around though, as she had about twelve children to take care of!

Dorothy, my 4x great-grandmother, remained in Glasgow and applied for poor relief in 1893 which also confirms that Robert was dead by that point, which isn't a surprise as he would be in his nineties by then.

His step-son Edward Dodd Barrass also lived in the north-east of England.



Is there anything obvious that I have missed? I'd appreciate your thoughts on how I can find this death record. I really hope that he died in Scotland, as that would potentially give me the names of his parents, in which case I could narrow down a baptism for him because there are too many possible candidates at the moment with the information I currently have.
Knighton in Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire
Tweedie in Lanarkshire and Co. Down
Rodgers in Durham and Co. Monaghan
McMillan in Lanarkshire and Argyllshire

Offline ColC

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 24 March 23 16:20 GMT (UK) »
1841 census lists all as posted, all born in County except Mary Ann (Noted as Mary)

1851 - 78 Waters St. Milton.
GRAY   Robert   Head   M   51   Agricultural Labourer   Northumberland   -   Blind   
GRAY   Mary   Wife   M   58   Grocer   Northumberland   -      
GRAY   Dorothy   Dau   U   17      Northumberland   -      
GRAY   Ralph   Son   U   12      Northumberland   -      

I just wondered if you had seen the original 1851 census, if so is the above correct?

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 24 March 23 17:16 GMT (UK) »
One avenue of enquiry would be to see if by any chance he applied to the Glasgow Parochial Board.

He may not have been long enough in Glasgow to acquire 'settlement' there, but it's not outwith the bounds of possibility that he applied for poor relief in Glasgow and that his case was referred by Glasgow to wherever in Northumberland he did have 'settlement'. If so, there should be records of where he was born, who his parents were and when and where he died.

On the other hand his family may have been able to support him without recourse to Poor Relief, so there could well be nothing to find.

See https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/family-history and in particular https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/family-history/research-guides/poor-law-from-1845 and https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/media/cbndxgh0/archives-poor-law-leaflet-v3.pdf

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline JAKnighton

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 24 March 23 21:48 GMT (UK) »
1841 census lists all as posted, all born in County except Mary Ann (Noted as Mary)

1851 - 78 Waters St. Milton.
GRAY   Robert   Head   M   51   Agricultural Labourer   Northumberland   -   Blind   
GRAY   Mary   Wife   M   58   Grocer   Northumberland   -      
GRAY   Dorothy   Dau   U   17      Northumberland   -      
GRAY   Ralph   Son   U   12      Northumberland   -      

I just wondered if you had seen the original 1851 census, if so is the above correct?

Colin

Yes that is all correct. I had not seen the original, thank you. Interesting that he is recorded as being blind.

One avenue of enquiry would be to see if by any chance he applied to the Glasgow Parochial Board.

He may not have been long enough in Glasgow to acquire 'settlement' there, but it's not outwith the bounds of possibility that he applied for poor relief in Glasgow and that his case was referred by Glasgow to wherever in Northumberland he did have 'settlement'. If so, there should be records of where he was born, who his parents were and when and where he died.

On the other hand his family may have been able to support him without recourse to Poor Relief, so there could well be nothing to find.

See https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/family-history and in particular https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/family-history/research-guides/poor-law-from-1845 and https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/media/cbndxgh0/archives-poor-law-leaflet-v3.pdf

I keep forgetting about the poor law records! Now that it seems he was blind, this definitely looks like a promising lead. Thanks!
Knighton in Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire
Tweedie in Lanarkshire and Co. Down
Rodgers in Durham and Co. Monaghan
McMillan in Lanarkshire and Argyllshire


Offline GR2

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 24 March 23 22:52 GMT (UK) »
North British Daily Mail, 21-11-1887:

DEATHS FROM EXCESSIVE DRINKING. - Mary
Ann Gray or Forbes, 64 years of age, died sud-
denly in a house at 9 Brown Street, Port-Dundas,
yesterday morning. Deceased, who was much
addicted to drink, went to bed on Saturday night
in a state of intoxication. - Bridget McGinnis or
Cavan, 47 years of age, died yesterday morning in
her home at 28 Lyon Street. She had been
drinking heavily for seven weeks, and on Satur-
day was in a delirious condition. In both cases
the deaths are believed to have resulted from
excessive drink.

Offline Neale1961

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 24 March 23 23:29 GMT (UK) »
It may not help with Robert, but there is a poor law application for Robert’s daughter Dorothy (who had been deserted) in Bothwell Parish, Nov 1896.
It gives parents as Robert Gray – glassworker and Mary Barras, both dead.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 24 March 23 23:52 GMT (UK) »
I cannot see Robert in the USA with either Richard or Ralph.
I think it is more likely he was with a daughter in his old age / death.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline ColC

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 25 March 23 11:36 GMT (UK) »
Is this the death of Roberts wife?

MARY GRAY 79
Mother FORBES
1868
PARTICK

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline JAKnighton

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Re: When and where did Robert Gray die?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 25 March 23 12:04 GMT (UK) »
North British Daily Mail, 21-11-1887:

DEATHS FROM EXCESSIVE DRINKING. - Mary
Ann Gray or Forbes, 64 years of age, died sud-
denly in a house at 9 Brown Street, Port-Dundas,
yesterday morning. Deceased, who was much
addicted to drink, went to bed on Saturday night
in a state of intoxication. - Bridget McGinnis or
Cavan, 47 years of age, died yesterday morning in
her home at 28 Lyon Street. She had been
drinking heavily for seven weeks, and on Satur-
day was in a delirious condition. In both cases
the deaths are believed to have resulted from
excessive drink.

Thank you for this. Interesting that her death was reported this way, as the official cause of death on her death record is 'dropsy'. I suppose the two causes aren't incompatible, though. Nice bit of social history!

It may not help with Robert, but there is a poor law application for Robert’s daughter Dorothy (who had been deserted) in Bothwell Parish, Nov 1896.
It gives parents as Robert Gray – glassworker and Mary Barras, both dead.


Thank you, but I have seen this already and described it in my original post. Dorothy was my 4x great-grandmother.

I cannot see Robert in the USA with either Richard or Ralph.
I think it is more likely he was with a daughter in his old age / death.

I agree. It's interesting though that I can't find a death for Richard, either. He disappears after 1870.

Is this the death of Roberts wife?

MARY GRAY 79
Mother FORBES
1868
PARTICK

Colin

Thank you, but no. Mary died in 1854 and was buried in Sighthill Cemetery.
Knighton in Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire
Tweedie in Lanarkshire and Co. Down
Rodgers in Durham and Co. Monaghan
McMillan in Lanarkshire and Argyllshire