Buckland family

[ozbrit]

Hi, I've been researching my family tree as one often does in retirement 

So My grandmother went by the name of Amy Christina Smith it appears she was born to an informal union abt 1895. Her background or birth is obscure. It appears that neither her or younger siblings had their births registered.

DNA matching links me to Amy's parents being Thomas Buckland (1878-1948) son to Onesiphorus (Siffy) Buckland 1845-1888 and Martha Buckland (1846-1926), maiden name Beldam but also went by her mothers maiden name Smith born at Wendover Bucks in 1846 (in the 1851 national census she appears with her family camping at Drayton Parslow, Bucks.

I'm now supposing that Thomas Buckland aged 16-17 went fruit or hop picking in Kent where he met a 14yo maiden going by the name Phoebe Foreman (probably not a traveler family) and they made hay, the result being my granny Amy. I read that it was Gypsy tradition for a couple to move in and raise their Children at the paternal grandparents abode. With that being the case it was to Middlesex where Martha Buckland now widowed was living and making a living as a sometimes Cook. She had a caravan she took to fairs where she offered services as a clairvoyant/fortune teller/palmist going under the name of Madam Smith - Smith being her Mothers maiden name.
I came across a photo of her and her caravan with advertising board.

The young couple went on to have two other daughters Jane and Vera, these girls also didn't have their births registered and were named Smith. Then in 1915

I'm wondering if this course

It appears that the Union went on to have a further seven younger children, but they all received the surname Buckland. The couple had a registered marriage ceremony in 1913. They also appeared in a census about this time with occupation described as flower sellers.

Because of the lack of official documentation for the three Smith/Buckland girls, I've been adding up the dots to work out why my granny didn't have a birth certificate, her family home was Edenbridge Kent and they ended up in Middlesex. Any ideas anyone about this?

[jim1]

Hello & welcome to RC
Just to clarify Thomas Buckland & Phoebe Foreman had
3 children prior to marriage they being Amy, Jane & Vera named Smith.
& 7 more post marriage named Buckland.
You're asking why there was no birth registered for Amy.
It wasn't unusual for illegitimate births not to be registered & those that
were seldom included father's name.
Your focus seems to shift away from Amy to Martha during your post
so you don't say if Amy married.
If she did her marriage cert. should give father's name.

[osprey]

I can see a marriage 8 July 1913 in Willesden for Phoebe Foreman & Joseph Foreman, her father being Thomas & his Si?ie. The spouses are both noted as flower sellers, address 37 Barrets Green Road.

Have you eliminated these possible birth regs?
Amy Smith march qtr 1895 Uckfield vol 2b pg 123 mmn Foreman
Jane Smith dec qtr 1899 Sevenoaks vol 2a pg 707 mmn Foreman

However, 1911 census only shows 2 sons with the couple
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:XWW1-9Z

birth reg
John Buckland march qtr 1909 Ealing vol3a pg 140 mmn Foreman

 

[ozbrit]

Hello & welcome to RC
Just to clarify Thomas Buckland & Phoebe Foreman had
3 children prior to marriage they being Amy, Jane & Vera named Smith.
& 7 more post marriage named Buckland.
You're asking why there was no birth registered for Amy.
It wasn't unusual for illegitimate births not to be registered & those that
were seldom included father's name.
Your focus seems to shift away from Amy to Martha during your post
so you don't say if Amy married.
If she did her marriage cert. should give father's name.

Thanks for the welcome.

With regards to Granny Amy Smith she got into a relationship with William Herbert Whiteman with whom she was in service to. Mr Whiteman then had a relationship, marriage and four children with her younger sister Jane Constance Smith. When Amy was in the relationship they produced my Father Eric Herbert Merrin in 1917. Quite where the name Merrin emanated from, is a big mystery. Anyhow, it appears Mr Whiteman chose not to legally recognise the child and a story was then invented to protect (I suspect) the father, a freemason possibly because he may have considered that having a child outside of marriage would look unseemly in the community, plus protecting my father from the stigma of illegitimacy. The story went that Amy had married someone going by the name of Merrin, but he didn't survive duty in France or Flanders and it therefore left Amy widowed with a young child of his. No record of a marriage is to found. Amy does appear on the 1921 census as Aimee Kristina Merrin (widowed) in service with her younger sister Vera Phoebe Smith and son Eric Herbert Merrin (son) aged 4. in Middlesex.

DNA matching has linked me and my nephew to William Herbert Whiteman as a blood relative via DNA tests of other descendants of his on the ancestry,com database.

I'm thinking the three girls given the name Smith were raised mostly by their Granny Martha Buckland nee Beldam and named by her. The younger children of the union then named Buckland and raised in a family environment by the parents.
 
Thanks for your input

[ozbrit]

I can see a marriage 8 July 1913 in Willesden for Phoebe Foreman & Joseph Foreman, her father being Thomas & his Si?ie. The spouses are both noted as flower sellers, address 37 Barrets Green Road.

Have you eliminated these possible birth regs?
Amy Smith march qtr 1895 Uckfield vol 2b pg 123 mmn Foreman
Jane Smith dec qtr 1899 Sevenoaks vol 2a pg 707 mmn Foreman

However, 1911 census only shows 2 sons with the couple
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:XWW1-9Z

birth reg
John Buckland march qtr 1909 Ealing vol3a pg 140 mmn Foreman

 

That's very interesting with both Uckfield and Sevenoaks being close registry towns to Edenbridge, where Ms Foreman was raised.

[maddys52]

Hello ozbrit and welcome to RootsChat.

There was another thread about Amy SMITH last year which may be of interest:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=867637

[jorose]

Do you have Eric's birth certificate? Does it have any hints (address of birth, supposed name of Mr Merrin?)

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
 shows a Phoebe Buckland, 26, a peddlar of Willesden, being done in 1907 for drunk and disorderly. The full article might give you some ideas of the family situation.

I don't see at the moment any reason to presume that Phoebe was the mother of all the children. Someone else could have been the mother of the Smith girls  (maybe a Miss Smith!), and then Phoebe was the mother of the later Buckland children only.

It looks to me possibly that Phoebe Foreman from Edenbridge married Joseph Ripley in Sussex in 1896.  This might be them in 1901, no kids:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:XSNR-7TV

What happened to them after that is not clear, but perhaps the relationship broke down and she got together with Thomas.  A preexisting relationship is often a reason not to marry until after the birth of children.

[osprey]

Phoebe's father is noted as Thomas Foreman, sweep, on both parish marriages and the signatures look similar. Ages on the Ripley marriage are inflated as they would both have been under age.

[ozbrit]

Do you have Eric's birth certificate? Does it have any hints (address of birth, supposed name of Mr Merrin?)

Sadly no.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
 shows a Phoebe Buckland, 26, a peddlar of Willesden, being done in 1907 for drunk and disorderly. The full article might give you some ideas of the family situation.

Response: Thanks, Willesden is the given address for her partner Joseph Buckland's mother Martha. It's very likely the incident does involve my Great Grandmother considering how Phoebe isn't/hasn't been a common name.

I don't see at the moment any reason to presume that Phoebe was the mother of all the children. Someone else could have been the mother of the Smith girls  (maybe a Miss Smith!), and then Phoebe was the mother of the later Buckland children only.

Response: Ancestry,com DNA results has matched both me and a nephew to being blood relatives of both the Buckland and Foreman families.

It looks to me possibly that Phoebe Foreman from Edenbridge married Joseph Ripley in Sussex in 1896.  This might be them in 1901, no kids:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:XSNR-7TV

Response: It's a puzzle. It's my contention that the youngest three girls born to the union were raised (essentially adopted) by their Gran Martha Beldam/Buckland who traded as Smith (ancestral family name) in Middlesex and it's possible the young couple went their own way as travelers

What happened to them after that is not clear, but perhaps the relationship broke down and she got together with Thomas.  A preexisting relationship is often a reason not to marry until after the birth of children.

Thanks and please see my responses below each sentence