Paying for Army records TNA ref numbers?

[Cell]

Hi,
Just an update on mine , and I also have an extra big question ; Are the.TNA breaking any laws under the FOI ACT ? :

It seems  to me that the TNA are  not sticking by the within 20 working days under the FOI ACT  , and  also *their ( *TNA.) own clauses to this when it is not possible for them to do it within the 20 working days  . It's  now apparently  6 months for FOI request from them ,  which I don't  think is good enough in my  own case for the reasons  that they clearly informed me  in writing " within 20 working days from payment " ( I paid them on the 18th April) with a clause underneath that  it will take" longer"  but WE WILL REGULARLY UPDATE YOU. (  It's  the "regularly update" you  bit  that I am getting really annoyed at the most  - as I have not received any updates at all , pure silence from their end - it is almost  as if they've taken my money and ran , ie  their agreements and clauses are not worth the paper it is written on)

"Depending on how swiftly payment is made, you should receive copies of the requested record within 20 working days, as laid out in the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

Please be aware that this department is currently handling an exceptionally high volume of cases, so it will take us longer than usual to respond to your request.  We will update you regularly on the progress of your case.  To allow us to process cases as efficiently as possible, please note that we will not be able to answer standard queries "
 Above quote from the email I recieved from them when they sent me the payment  information and then a link to pay (back  in April,when I paid for it ).

I  have  emailed them just a few days ago  to enquire why I haven't  heard from them at all ( which was 33 working days after my  payment ) .  I  was expecting to receive  the records  a little bit longer after  that  FOI ACT of  20 working days , as  stated by them ( " longer")   in their clauses to  this at the time,  but fully  expected to  being regularly updated when this was to occur , as also written In their clauses too in their emails to me , but  not this long of 33  working days.

The auto  email  reply to when you send off an email to then now currently says this

" Thank you for getting in touch.

Your email has been received by the MOD Access Service Team at The National Archives and we will respond in due course.

Our team is currently processing a high volume of requests and we respond to all emails in date order.

Please be advised that our CURRENT average processing time for a Freedom of Information (FOI) request is 6 months.

Kind regards"
Quote  ( I've underlined , and made bold the  relevant above words)


I personally don't  think this is good enough, when I  initially  applied months before -  way back in Feb , and PAID for the service/records  when they finally  sent me a link in  April to pay - All of which , including payment, occurred before they brought in this  current 6 month clause (that they very  recently have brought into their clauses when you try  to get in contact with them ).  There was no 6 months wording  in any of their clauses in all of their correspondence to me when I paid  months ago, just  the wording "longer" ( whatever that is  supposed to mean in exact time,  as they did not  specify  in their  then clauses what "longer" means in  terms of  exact about time- can that mean   just  a few weeks, months, or even years?   )  And that they will "regularly update me with my case to which they  havent done at all.

I probably won't get an answer to my  enquiry email for weeks from them  ( about why  I havent been updated  as stated in their emails to me,   or sent the records  )

My question is, does anyone know if they could be breaking the FOI  act  in this case?  I am on the verge of putting in a complaint to the  ICO over the issues that they told me in their correspondence to me that I would receive  them within 20 working days  in accordance  to the FOI act , but  it will take longer than this-  BUT they would  REGULARY  UPDATE me - which they haven't  to this exact date, ( today) , I  still haven't  heard one single  Dicky bird update  from them on the progress of my case that is  long overdue (well over 33 working days later after  my payment).

Is it worth  putting  a complaint in to the ICO  over their lack of updating me , when it runs  well " longer"   over those 20 working days  ? Or are the TNA within  their full legal rights  to change their  clauses way after you have paid for the service from them, hence them cancelling those clauses that  were current when you paid for the  agreed service , and time of when you entered into the contract with them  - if that makes any sense.
Surely  that can not  be legal, changing the clauses after you paid under completely different clauses with  them ?  And they have a legal obligation to stick within 20 working days under the  FOI or regularly update me with progress of my case, as  written at the time I entered an agreement with them/paid for the records.

Thank you for any  opinions, or thoughts on this matter
Kind regards

[Andy J2022]

Where specific particular circumstances arise, Article 4 of The Freedom of Information (Time for Compliance with Request) Regulations 2004 increases the time in which the Public Record Office (the legal name of the National Archives) has to comply with an FoI request to 60 working days. Put as simply as possible, the specific circumstances are that the information which forms the content of the application is not open information due to it being subject to, or possibly subject to, special exemptions. In this case an exemption may arise because it would involve disclosing personal information relating to a person other than the applicant. Needless to say, the actual wording to the amended FoI Act is considerably more complicated than that.

Sixty working days is, in effect, 12 weeks although that period is slightly longer in your case due to the three bank holidays in May, and Easter. 

There is no statutory provision for keeping you informed about the progess of the application, although I agree that they should not make commitments to do so if they don't intend to keep to them.

[Cell]

Thank you so much  Andy,
 I am really annoyed at  their  words that  they  " WILL " update on the progress of your case.
so really their " Will"   word  is not  really worth the  paper it is  written  on.

" Depending on how swiftly payment is made, you should receive copies of the requested record within 20 working days, as laid out in the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

 Please be aware that this department is currently handling an exceptionally high volume of cases, so it will take us longer than usual to respond to your request. We will update you regularly on the progress of your case"  Quote

Thank you again for your above  explanation.
 I'll  wait until 60 working days to take it further with an official  complaint  to the ICO( but hopefully I  will not need to )
Kind regards 

[ewanarm]

I have today received an email in response to my request for my Grandfather's service record and have received his service record and have not been charged! I sent the request through the GOV.UK website on 17/04/2023 and received a response today so it has only taken two months. There is no request for payment of a search fee.

[Cell]

I have today received an email in response to my request for my Grandfather's service record and have received his service record and have not been charged! I sent the request through the GOV.UK website on 17/04/2023 and received a response today so it has only taken two months. There is no request for payment of a search fee.

Hi Ewanarm,
Did the  record  you  received  come from the MOD, or the TNA?

I also have received  my grandfather's record  too - at last! It came in today  with a link to download  it.

I am still reading it. , I am trying to decipher  a lot of it as I am not  familiar with some of the  Military  abbreviations . It's a big record 165 pages long  , it's So well worth my money either way -  I am just so happy I've finally recieved it. His record spans from the 1920s to 1966 ( I've got an exact date for retirement now at last)
They've  reacted some of mine, such as  they've  blanked out my uncle's name ( my grandfather's  son) with a note over it saying redacted under foi exemption until 2041 ( my uncle  has  been dead for a  good few years now - but I know it is him of course) .
I haven't  got through all the pages yet to see the other children being blanked out yet. ( such as my living mum and the other sibling) . I am only on page 26 of 165 so far .I have to keep googling the terms/ abbreviations to make sense out of some  of it.
 It's  going to take me months to make  some sense out of it though lol. But it  is sorting out a few things for me so far , such as I have realised that  I have mistranscribed my grandfathers writing on  an  old 1950s photo in Singapore with the army to say "Fahey "HQ , I always wondered what  the heck did he mean by Fahey   . Looking at the record he was actually at  the FARELF HQ during this exact time( far east land forces HQ ) .  That's  one mystery solved so far

Kind regards

[ewanarm]

Hi Cell,

It came from the MOD and is only 4 pages! The papers show his service record and his notification of release in 1945. Service record starts with his service in school Officer Training Corps through Territorial service with RAMC and war service and then shows him being placed on the reserve. Only redactions are his religion and details of his spouse which I obviously know already. Helped confirm a few stories that I had been told but only actually served overseas for 4 months in 1945 which is different to what I had been told.

[Rann69]

Hello

May I ask a simple question please.

Is it the case that there is no charge for obtainong service records of deceased army ancestors from April 2023?

I just completed the MOD Gov Application online and saw no mention of fees or charges. Thanks all.

[ALAMO2008]

It didn't say it would spend time looking and photocopying Records and Posting all Free from April 2023
What it said was that your Application  would not be Charged
Because previous applications with Payment were invalid after  6 montbs after they reached it in their 2 year backlog

[Rann69]

Thanks so after submitting the Application online and then go on to receive a record there is a fee - do you know what that is? Thanks again

ps - my ancestor's record relates to National Service post 1945