Do I have the right Joseph Murphy?

[tillyann]

Hi,
I have traced my ancestor, Catharine Whitaker nee Murphy but I am wondering if I have the right Joseph Murphy, a stonemason as her father. He is recorded on Catharine's marriage to Edmund Whitaker on 20 December 1860 at the Parish Church, Oldham as being from Bottom of Moor, and a Stonemason.
I can't find Catharine on any census with him but I have found a family on the 1841 Census - Joseph Murphy, Stonemason and his wife Catherine nee Burn living in London Road with Children Margaret, Joseph and Ann. There is no Catharine with them (although I did find a Cathe Murphy who was 16 and working as a servant on another record). Joseph and his family are at 35 Brighton St, Manchester on the 1851 and by 1861 he is a widower boarding at 14 Hancock St, Manchester.
I can't find another Joseph Murphy who was a Stonemason.
Where was Bottom of the Moor?
Any help is much appreciated.
Tilly Ann

[BumbleB]

Here is Bottom of Moor from this map

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344063

[tillyann]

That definitely helps to put things in perspective.
Thank you BumbleB,
Tilly Ann

[wivenhoe]

https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

20 Dec 1860 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
WHITAKER Edmund 25y, tailor, bachelor, Lees Road
Father  WHITAKER Edmd. tailor

MURPHY Catharine (X), 23, Spinster, Bottom of Moor
Father  MURPHY Joseph  stonemason

Witness  Abram. JACKSON    Rose McMULLIN
Married by Banns by: John Robinson


25 Oct 1868 St Paul, Bury, Lancashire, England
TAYLOR Thomas  29 y soldier, bachelor, Burys Yard
Father: Charles TAYLOR, Joiner

MURPHY Margaret  (X), 33 y, spinster, Burys Yard
Father: Joseph MURPHY, Stone Mason

Witness: James GREENWOOD; Mary Ann HARVEY, (X)
Married by Banns by: Bigland Withers

[tillyann]

Hi Wivenhoe,
The first record is definitely the right Catharine. The second record for Margaret says she's 33 which depending on when she was born could be right. She was 7 years old in 1841.That would make Catherine younger than Margaret yet she isn't on any of the Census returns.
This is why I'm thinking that there must be another Joseph Murphy living locally that is a Stonemason.
Joseph was born in Highfield, Liverpool and Liverpool it is certainly where Edmund and Catharine raise their children. Catharine dies in a workhouse (as does at least one of her children) and is buried in a communal grave at Anfield. Her story is very sad.
I'm puzzled because she died and was buried in a way that doesn't really fit with what I know of the family. Certainly they were poor but they always seemed to bury family properly.
I think Joseph must have died before her because surely he wouldn't have wanted her treated like that. Having said that I have found a few Lancashire Joseph Murphy's who have died in workhouses themselves.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
Tilly Ann

[heatherjulie]

Catherine is from Bottom of Moor at the time of the marriage, not Joseph

[tillyann]

Hi Heatherjulie,
That is so true. I didn't even consider that she wasn't living with her family (despite the fact that I've said I can't find her with her family!). Something else I had disregarded was recorded in the 1861 Census that she is from Ireland.  I have seen on other records where birthplaces are recorded incorrectly and I figured that Edmund was born in Ireland so she has said Ireland too.
So, I'd have to find a record that connected her to Bottom of Moor and now realise Joseph may very well be back in Ireland
I don't have much to go on then.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Best Wishes,
Tilly Ann

[lancsann]

Catherine is also recorded as being born in Ireland in the 1871 census - living in Liverpool

[tillyann]

Thanks LancsAnn,
Pretty difficult to find her then without anything to go on. I've traced her life after her marriage but without at least a County in Ireland to go on or a mother's name it would make it a difficult task unfortunately. Not even a clue in the children's names.
No shortage of Joseph Murphy's who were Stonemasons in the whole of Ireland l should imagine.
Best wishes
Tilly Ann