8th Royal Tank Regiment POW query

[vapcq45]

My Uncle was reported missing on the 1st June 1942 whilst with the 8th RTR.  By the 18th Sept that year he was reported as being a POW, and I know he was in a camp in Italy.  He escaped and fought with the Partisans and was back in an Allied hospital with Typhoid by 30th October 1944.

I have 2 questions:

Would he have been asked to make a statement about his time as a POW and if so where might I find this?

His prison camp number was not against his name in the record I have, are there any sources I could try and find out where?

Thanks very much!

[Andy J2022]

Would he have been asked to make a statement about his time as a POW and if so where might I find this?

Yes he would. You should find his report in WO 208 at TNA. Just put WO208 and his surname into the Discovery search box.

His prison camp number was not against his name in the record I have, are there any sources I could try and find out where?

He was probably being held by the Italians. Their record keeping wasn't as thorough as the Germans. Usually the International Committee of the Red Cross wasn't officially informed of a POW's whereabouts until he was settled in a proper camp. A POW could be moved between a number of holding pens, especially if the battle was fluid, before being evacuated to the rear areas and in his case, presumably, back to mainland Italy. Again, putting his name into the search on TNA may bring up a POW card in WO 416  You could also try WO 361 (inquiries made by the War Office into missing soldiers presumed captured) and WO 365/80 (British POWs in Italy). Unfortunately it's not currently possible to ask for a search of the ICRC WW2 database until 22 May. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/request-information-about-individuals-detained-during-second-world-war-or-spanish-civil-war-quota

[vapcq45]

Thanks so much Andy, that is really very interesting.

I've tried a few times today of searching WO208 for my uncle William Alfred Loftus but nothing has surfaced yet.  Do you know if this would be the only place for a record of their time as a POW.

I'm trying the other recommendations re the prison camp in Italy.

Sadly in the WO 392 POW Lists 1943-1945 21: Imperial Prisoners of War Held in Italy, Italian-Occupied Territory: British & Commonwealth Army the camp No. agains his name is blank!

I hope to find it sometime.

Thanks again.

[Andy J2022]

WO 416 is the series of cards held for all POWs as far as I am aware, based on information received from the ICRC, so if he isn't there, maybe the War Office wasn't informed about him. If he escaped fairly soon after capture, it may be that the War Office took no further steps to trace him.

As for the WO 208 entries, I am not entirely sure that they definitely included reports from Italian POW camps. The other thing to bear in mind is that as he managed to rejoin the Allied forces after Italy had capitulated in September 1943, maybe MI9 were no longer interested in what had gone on in the Italian camps, so he wasn't asked to complete a form. On a side note, it may have been the capitulation of Italy which allowed him to escape.

The only other thing I can suggest is to put in a request to the ICRC after 22 May and see if they can trace him.

[Andy J2022]

I wasn't able to log in to FindMyPast yesterday but I've just checked today and there are several references to him in the casualty lists, including two which confirm he was a prisoner of war and not just missing. Therefore the War Office must have been officially informed about him.
Let me know if you haven't already seen all those.
In particular Casualty List 1938 dated 22/12/44 notes that he was previously a prisoner of war in Italian hands now not a prisoner of war, which ties in with your original posting. Apart from the number 558 written beside his name in Casualty List 984 dated 18 Nov 1942, which notifies him as a POW, I can see no other useful links to his ICRC record card.

[vapcq45]

Hi Andy

Yes, I have the FindMyPast info, which is really good.  I've asked his immediate family again if they have any clues as to his whereabouts in Italy.  I'll keep at it.

[vapcq45]

I've just attached his Service and Casualty Form and wonder if you can tell anything from this?

From the attached report also, I see that Lt Commander Gott took 8th RTR and created Squadron A, B and C.  Does William's service record say which he was with?

Anything that can be cleaned fro the attached would be wonderful.  Thank you!

[vapcq45]

...and this account.

[Andy J2022]

Hi vapcq45,

Sorry to say that his Service and Casualty sheet doesn't contain anything useful about his time as a POW. The entries all reflect the British Casualty lists (BCL) which you have already seen on FindMyPast.  Let me know if there are any specific abbreviations etc that you don't understand. For example the X list to which he was posted is just a holding category while he was in hospital. By posting him to the X list his unit could ask for a replacement soldier (not that they would have got one under the circumstances at that stage in the war!). SOS means struck off strength, ie no longer on the strength of the particular unit or theatre of operations. CMF is Central Mediterranean Force. The W or sometimes W/S in front of his rank stands for war substantive - in other words his seniority ranked below any career corporals who had signed up for a 22 year engagement, and chances are that he would have lost the rank at the end of the war when the Army slimmed down.

As for the written account, all Royal Armoured Corps units, that is, the cavalry and the Royal Tank Regiment, were subdivided into squadrons, this being the equivalent of a company in the infantry.  So when General Gott ordered the 8 RTR to transfer to under command of the 2nd South African Division, A squadron went to one column, code named Seacol[umn], and B & C squadrons went to StopCol[umn]. This all took place during the second battle of Tobruk. You can read a bit more about the battle here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_capture_of_Tobruk  (added: extract of the relevant bit in next post)