Can anyone help me identify which of the forces my grandad was in?

[zoehutson]

Hi there,

It's my first time posting on here, so apologies if I'm not very good, but I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me identify which of the forces my grandad was in and where he may have been based etc? My dad has a memory of him returning home after the war, also the 1939 census does not have him at home with his wife and children, which leads me to believe he was away.

I have a picture of him in uniform, but my dad also thinks he may have been in the Grenadier Guards, or possibly a Coldstream Guard (because of the buttons). I can't find any service records for him anywhere. I also don't have a death certificate for him, which means I can't apply for his records yet.

Any help would be gratefully received!

[Andy J2022]

Hi Zoe

Welcome to the forum.

The Grenadiers and Coldstream both had shoulder titles with white lettering on a red background so it's not clear from the photo which he might have been. The only difference is that the Coldstream used sanserif lettering, whereas the Grenadiers used letters with serifs. Unfortunately the photo isn't clear enough to show that sort of detail. If you have the original photo rather than the scan, try checking it with a magnifying glass.

I'm not sure what your dad meant about the buttons as there aren't any that I can see in this photo. I assume he was talking about the spacing of the No1 Tunic (the scarlett ones the Guards wear on ceremonial duties). If so then that doesn't really help here since your grandad is in battle dress.

Almost uniquely the Scots Guards and the Coldstream retained their own records for the period after 1920 so if your grandad was Coldstream you may be in luck tracking down his details. You need to contact their Regimental Headquarters with as much detail as you can supply. Sadly the same does not apply to the Grenadier Guards and the only place you will find their records is with the MOD. As you say it's difficult to apply for any service records without a death certificate but presumably you can get that fairly easily.

If you haven't already done so, I suggest you try putting his name into a search on the National Archives website along with the word Guards and limit the date range to 1939 - 1946. Something may just crop up, such as a medal award or casualty list entry.

You could also try searching for your grandad's name on the WW2Talk forum. They are assembling a list of known regimental numbers for the two regiments and you might just get lucky providing that his was a not too common surname.
http://WW2talk.com/index.php?threads/coldstream-guards-reference-thread.80210/
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/grenadier-guards-reference-thread.80209/

If you post his name here, I'm sure some of our talented sleuths will find some more details for you.

[Andy J2022]

Just to add to my last posting, if by any chance your grandad was also named Hutson one entry at TNA may be of interest, showing the POW details of a Charles Hutson Coldstream Guards:

WO 416/190/403
Description:    

Name: Charles Hutson.

Date of Birth: 26/4/1918.

Place of Birth: Cymsby Lincolnshire. [possibly Grimsby?]

Service: British Army.

Rank: Guardsman.

Regiment/Unit/Squadron: [Coldstream Guards].

Service Number: 2658138.

Date of Capture: [unspecified].

Theatre of Capture: [unspecified].

Camp Name/Number: Stalag IVB Muhlberg.

PoW number: 228200.

Date of Death: [unspecified].

Number of Photographs: 0.

Number of Fingerprints: 0.

Number of X-rays: 0.

Number of Cards: 1. 

[GR2]

It is always worth searching the newspapers in case something comes up. What was his name?

[zoehutson]

Hi Andy,

Thank you for the welcome and for your reply.

I do have the original photo, so I will have a look tomorrow in better light and see if I can figure out which of the two it is.

With regards to the buttons, I think he meant on his tunic as you say.

Thank you for letting me know about the Regimental Headquarters for the Coldstream Guards- I will definitely get in touch with them to see if they have anything of him.

I have tried looking on the Forces War Records, but I didn't find anything on there. I'm wondering if there could have been a misspelling of his name maybe?

His name was Thomas George Tebbutt. He was born in 1909 in Bradwell, Buckinghamshire.

With regards to my last name, it is actually my mums last name rather than my dads- I created my account without thinking, but I'm unsure whether I can change the name without having to make a whole new one! On my family tree I have myself down as Tebbutt, but it completely slipped my mind to do the same on here!

Thank you for your help and suggestions so far! I appreciate it.

[scrimnet]

Hi Zoe

Welcome to the forum.

The Grenadiers and Coldstream both had shoulder titles with white lettering on a red background so it's not clear from the photo which he might have been. The only difference is that the Coldstream used sanserif lettering, whereas the Grenadiers used letters with serifs. Unfortunately the photo isn't clear enough to show that sort of detail. If you have the original photo rather than the scan, try checking it with a magnifying glass.

I'm not sure what your dad meant about the buttons as there aren't any that I can see in this photo. I assume he was talking about the spacing of the No1 Tunic (the scarlett ones the Guards wear on ceremonial duties). If so then that doesn't really help here since your grandad is in battle dress.

Almost uniquely the Scots Guards and the Coldstream retained their own records for the period after 1920 so if your grandad was Coldstream you may be in luck tracking down his details. You need to contact their Regimental Headquarters with as much detail as you can supply. Sadly the same does not apply to the Grenadier Guards and the only place you will find their records is with the MOD. As you say it's difficult to apply for any service records without a death certificate but presumably you can get that fairly easily.

If you haven't already done so, I suggest you try putting his name into a search on the National Archives website along with the word Guards and limit the date range to 1939 - 1946. Something may just crop up, such as a medal award or casualty list entry.

You could also try searching for your grandad's name on the WW2Talk forum. They are assembling a list of known regimental numbers for the two regiments and you might just get lucky providing that his was a not too common surname.
http://WW2talk.com/index.php?threads/coldstream-guards-reference-thread.80210/
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/grenadier-guards-reference-thread.80209/

If you post his name here, I'm sure some of our talented sleuths will find some more details for you.

Although this was true of WW1 records, it sadly no longer is. They were sold off.
And importantly ALL records post 1921 are STILL with the MOD only. They are migrating to the National Archives and ultimately digitisation, but you still have to go through Kentigern House atm.

Forces War Records is sadly a waste of time and money. They have nothing which is not either free and in the public domain, or on ancestry or FindMyPast....Avoid

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel

[cath151]

Hi
A bit earlier than ww2 but...
There is a piece in the Wolverton Express 15th Sep 1933 re a marriage between Thomas George Tebbutt and Clarice Herbert.
"Bridegroom in Military Uniform"
It mentions siblings and parents address 40, Vicarage Road, Old Bradwell. It mentions him as a Grenadier Guardsman and that he was leaving England for Egypt with the 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards.
Cathy

[Andy J2022]

Although this was true of WW1 records, it sadly no longer is. They were sold off.
And importantly ALL records post 1921 are STILL with the MOD only. They are migrating to the National Archives and ultimately digitisation, but you still have to go through Kentigern House atm.

Forces War Records is sadly a waste of time and money. They have nothing which is not either free and in the public domain, or on ancestry or FindMyPast....Avoid

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel

Scrimnet, My comment about the Coldstream was based on this section contained in the TNA research Guide:

Service records of Guards regiments

The Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards regiments retain their own records. To access them write to or call the appropriate regimental headquarters.

For Grenadier, Irish and Welsh Guards service records visit the GOV.UK website.

Some of these records were destroyed by enemy bombing of the Guards chapel during the Second World War.

My understanding is that although the service records are with the MOD, the Guards hold quite a lot of unit level nominal rolls and other documentation which may be of help in identifying if Zoe's grandad was in the Coldstream Guards.

On your second point, I was not suggesting that she looks at FWR. The links are to WW2Talk with which I'm sure you are familiar and will acknowledge is an excellent forum.

[Treetotal]

Hi Zoe, Hope you don't mind, but I gave your lovely photo a clean and removed the double exposure around the legs.
Carol