Help finding David Thomas 1881 and earlier

[roycymru]

Hi

Hoping for help again. I am struggling to find David Thomas born about 1859 in census records earlier than 1891. In 1885 he married a Margaret Aubrey. The marriage record is for 6 Dec 1884, St. John’s Pontyberem. David Thomas, Bachelor, 26, Farm servant of Ystodwen, Father David Thomas, Farmer marrying Margaret Aubrey, Spinster, 22 of Wern Fach,  Father, Richard Aubrey, Moulder. In 1891 his birthplace is Llanelli, 1901 Llanarthney and in 1911 Pontyberem. They lived at Cilcarw Fach, Llangendeirne 1891 and 12 Gwendraeth Row, Llannon (Pontyberem) in 1901 and 1911.

Hoping to find him in Ysodwen in 1881 but no luck, but it does seem to be a place that exists.

In census records he is working as a collier

This is them in 1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6897/images/CMNRG12_4512_4515-0620?backurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%252Ffamily-tree%252Fperson%252Ftree%252F72019084%252Fperson%252F222008199292%252Ffacts%252Fcitation%252F742010658621%252Fedit%252Frecord&pid=490958

Thank you

[Sam Swift]

Looking at the marriage cert it could be Ystadwen. Listed in a Welsh newspaper article relating to Llannon is Mrs Davies Ystadwen. https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3683965/3683969/22/Ystadwen

[Sam Swift]

More likely Ystadwen isaf or uchaf see https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames?tab=&q=Ystod+wen+

[roycymru]

As a potential follow up to this (awaiting certificates etc.) I am also trying to trace the Ancestry of David Thomas, Farmer, born 1832-1835 Abergwilly, father John Thomas prior to 1861. In 1861 he is at Penybank, Llanfihangelyrarth and 1859 (when he marries) at Penyrhyn, Abergwilly?

As above, in 1861 I have him at Penybank, LlanfihangelyrAth with wife Mary (1837, Abergwilly) and Son David born 1859 Abergwilly.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/3407039?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a224d556e2b4b5a706563384a38425766692b782f456969594b4b3468756649333778664642654c2f4d4946413d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d

I believe the correct marriage for him is to Mary Richards on 08Feb1859, Abergwilly. David is a Farmer of Penyrhyn and Mary is of Llwyncroes (who I have traced back). For some reason the father’s names aren’t entered but both are listed as Farmer’s and I believe both witness, John Thomas and David Richards.

I am reasonably confident John Thomas a Farmer, is David’s father as on 02May1865 I believe he remarries an Eleanor Thomas at Llanarthney, his age is given as 31, a Farmer, this time of Brynynyd, with father John Thomas, a Farmer. David is listed as a Bachelor, but I believe this is an error, David’s signatures in both marriage entries are very similar. A witness was a John Thomas also of Brynynyd, possibly the father, or maybe the brother.

This is them in 1871, at Tynycwm, Glyn Hamlet (Pontyberem), Llanelly with son David now aged 12, a  son John born 1861, Llanfihangelyrarth (which corresponds to where they were living in 1861) and later children born Llanelly to David’s second wife.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/3407349?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a226c66445a5167464843742b6863624e784d3439506a65444c55384d49675a557262366c62394c72685855413d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d

There is a certain leap of faith with the changing addresses but I think it all fits. Feel free to disagree!

[roycymru]

David Thomas (1832-1835) signature

[Sam Swift]

The signatures certainly appear to be the same.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352909/4352914/22/ The Welshman 20 Jan 1865 col 3 mentions a John Thomas Brynynyd who had items stolen from him.

There is a marriage of a David Thomas widower farmer of Brynyd son of John Thomas a farmer to Mary Jones Sticlau (neighbouring farm I think) on 13 Aug 1862 https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/3440092?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a22596a594b64396e5576614a7531705548344d716a496f664748546172486b6e6c30384b494b4757516362773d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d



There is athis article that names Rachel Thomas the wife of a John Thomas Brynynad 27 Jan 1865 https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352918/4352923/14/

[roycymru]

Thank you for this. Fitting them into a coherent relationship with David Thomas of Abergwilly is difficult. I don’t think the David Thomas who married Mary Jones is the same as the the one that married Mary Richards and Eleanor Thomas, the signature for this David is too dissimilar from the others (attached).

I did try and find Thomas’ at Brynynyd in 1861 and 1871. If I remember correctly they weren’t there.

Brynynyd also seems a farm that for some reason regularly changed hands which doesn’t help. This is the farm advertised to be let in 1862.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4351649/4351653/9/Brynynyd%20AND%20Advertising

Again in 1864

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352576/4352580/15/Brynynyd%20AND%20Advertising

And again in 1870

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3146091/3146107/61/Brynynyd%20AND%20Advertising

It always seem to be advertised together with another property called Cringoed.

Identifying John and Rachel Thomas in census records might help but now knowing their ages or where they originated from makes this difficult.

[roycymru]

Have made some progress!

I know David Thomas (Snr) had a son David Thomas born around 1859 Abergwilly. David (Snr) first wife was Mary Richards. There was only one birth entry for the son that matched this criteria, so I ordered and have now had this back. David Thomas born 21 May 1859 Abergwilly, father David Thomas, Farmer. The birth address is Troedyrhiw which at first did not make sense but then when I searched for Troedyrhiw in census records it all started to fit together. Troedyrhiw, Abergwilly is actually the Thomas’ family home. In 1851 we have at Troedyrhiw

John Thomas, Head, 44, Newchurch
Rachel Thomas, Wife, 40, Abergwilly,
Elizabeth Thomas, Dau, 14, Newchurch
Thomas Thomas, Son, 2, Abergwilly
David Thomas, son, 18, Abergwilly

John and Rachel are still at Troedyrhiw in 1861 (I can’t find them after that)

In 1841 the family are at Glyn Velin, Newchurch.

John Thomas (of Newchurch) marries Rachel Thomas in Llanpumpsaint on 09 Feb 1832.


Going back to the original query about David Thomas born 1859 who married Margaret Aubrey. I can’t find him in census records prior to 1891. Conversely I can’t find David Thomas above in census records after 1881. There is a suggestion from descendants that the 2 David’s are the same person. The confusion about tracing them being that David that married Margaret gives his birth places as Llanelly, Llanarthney and then Pontyberem. The other David giving his birthplace as Abergwilly. It was proposed that Abergwilly is the correct birth place and up until 1881 would have been provided to the enumerator by his father. David’s father died in 1888 and therefore in 1891 onwards he would have had to provide his own details. He may have been unsure, therefore in 1891 defaults to Llanelly (the birth place of his step siblings, in 1901 to Llanarthney, the birth place of his stepmother and in 1991 reverts back to Pontyberem/Llanelly.

There is some merit in this, but thee is not an exact fit, as David who married Margaret gives his birth date of 01 May 1859, whereas the birth certificate of the other David gives 21 May 1859. Close, but is it close enough?

[roycymru]

The signatures certainly appear to be the same.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352909/4352914/22/ The Welshman 20 Jan 1865 col 3 mentions a John Thomas Brynynyd who had items stolen from him.

There is a marriage of a David Thomas widower farmer of Brynyd son of John Thomas a farmer to Mary Jones Sticlau (neighbouring farm I think) on 13 Aug 1862 https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/3440092?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a22596a594b64396e5576614a7531705548344d716a496f664748546172486b6e6c30384b494b4757516362773d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d



There is athis article that names Rachel Thomas the wife of a John Thomas Brynynad 27 Jan 1865 https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352918/4352923/14/

Now that I have established David (senior’s) parents were John and Rachel Thomas. It would make sense if it was them that had items stolen at Brynynyd in 1865, having moved from Troedyrhiw. It then makes much more sense for David (junior) to give this as his marriage address.

Any help trying to find John and Rachel in 1871 would be appreciated.