Reverse matching <20cM matches on Ancestry

[Glen in Tinsel Kni]

Despite having 16k Ancestry matches I don't have many close matches. My top 10 consist of two above 200cM and 8 between 100 and 199, I only know who four of them are.
Only 350 or so matches are above 20cM so I don't get great results when checking shared matches as only those above about 20cM are displayed. The majority of my matches predate the parent assignment and Ancestry has managed to assign over 13,000 of them including some of the very lowest shared cM matches.

As I don't have a great number of close matches, and thanks to DNA I've lost a paper trail paternal grandfather and a set of maternal grandparents and associated ancestors!, I am now faced with DNA results that contradict about 60 bmd certs and matches to completely unknown 2nd-4th cousins. I've been able to build two groups of maternal 'unknowns', each hasabout 25 matches and I can see they don't match to my maternal grandmother in any way. The highest match in both groups is between 150 and 199 cM estimated as a 2nd-3rd cousin but there is no crossover between them. 


I've started 'reverse matching' by looking at the <20cM matches and seeing who the shared matches are, most just match to one name but that one name can be a mutual match to dozens of the <20cM matches. They may match each other but the 20cM cutoff point is defeating me. I know they are all distant matches, perhaps 5th cousins and beyond, many don't have trees and/or are inactive. My tree won't go back far or wide enough to find the connection. Am I wasting my time or is there some way to piece at least some of them together without having to try and build tens or maybe hundreds of 4-5 generation trees?

[Ruskie]

I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable about DNA to unravel your question and offer you some proper suggestions, but can I just clarify that you are suggesting you have NPEs at grandparent level - one on your maternal grandfather’s side and another with both of your paternal grandparents whereby DNA shows they are not your paternal grandparents? So, in essence, you have “lost” three quarters of your paper trail tree?

Or have I misunderstood? 

[Glen in Tinsel Kni]

I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable about DNA to unravel your question and offer you some proper suggestions, but can I just clarify that you are suggesting you have NPEs at grandparent level - one on your maternal grandfather’s side and another with both of your paternal grandparents whereby DNA shows they are not your paternal grandparents? So, in essence, you have “lost” three quarters of your paper trail tree?

Or have I misunderstood? 

You've understood it far far better than I explained it. On paper everything can be proved with certs but the DNA paints a totally different story.

My father's birth cert (1923) records his parents as John Townsend and Annie Townsend nee Turner. They weren't married, at least not to each other anyway. Both had children previously, John was much older and two of his children were older than Annie. Descendants of John have done DNA tests and we don't match.

On my maternal side my grandfather's birth cert shows him to be the son of Joseph Hay and Jane Irvin. The pedigree lines at previous generation (great grandparent level) are Hay/Goulson and Irvin/Boag. I have a full set of bmd certs for Joseph and Jane along with the  certs and PR's for their parents. Descendants of both sets of great grandparents have tested and again there is no match to me. For obvious reasons it's impossible to test all the descendants but I think it's pretty definitive that they are not my great grandparents.

Joseph was a master mariner and the family lived in Hartlepool until late 1884 (based on Joseph's maritime records his final voyage ended in Dec 1884). They moved to Lincoln and their young son Joseph drowned in the river alongside the house on 22 Apr 1885. My grandfather's cert gives a dob in Sep 1885. The two mystery groups consist of an irish family with kids born 1850s-1860's around Leeds and a Lincoln area based family who had a travelling show, kids to that family born in the 1860's and early 1870's. I have a suspicion one of the showman's daughters fell pregnant and the child is actually my grandfather. Of course 1885 is about the worst year given census dates but there is a female in Lincoln in 1891 living very close to the Hay family, however her birth was registered in 1872 so she would have been very young, older sisters were away and married by 1891 but where they were in 1884-1885 is unknown. I can't rule them in or out.

On paper my grandfather is one of 6 'siblings' and the only one to have children as far as I can tell so there are no known avenues of DNA I can follow from that part of the family.
 
I have matches through my maternal grandmother where the MRCA's are as far back as 3xgrt grandparents and the closest match of all is a maternal 1c1r. None of the maternal grandmother matches show any match to the two mystery maternal groups,

I can find no link between the two mystery groups beyond their DNA mix ends up in me, I don't have full sibs (I'm adopted), my maternal half sibs refuse contact and my bio mother died over 30 years ago. There is the possibility it's my mother who is the NPE despite what her birth cert says, my only hope of answering that is to find a 1st cousin or 1c1r to take a test, there are only a few I can approach and two have declined. I'm running out of ideas for ways to find some answers.

[Ruskie]

I suppose it is possible that the descendants of John Townsend who don’t matches the ones who have the NPE rather than you. How many of John’s descendants don’t you match with, and do they match with each other?

The Hay Irvin anomaly seems fairly conclusive if you don’t match with descendants of either of them, or are you saying that you do have matches to your maternal grandmother’s side?

It could be that the lack of matches may be due to no close family taking an Ancestry DNA test. Any low matches you do have may be further back and difficult to trace. I’m sure we all have plenty of matches we have no idea where we connect.

Before finishing reading your post I wondered if it may be that the NPE was closer to home - possibly your mother.

If you tested with Ancestry have you uploaded your raw data to other sites, as you may get different matches. It might just be a waiting game and hope to eventually get some useful matches which help you.

Let’s hope someone can give some practical suggestions on how to proceed.

[Glen in Tinsel Kni]

I have raw data on Ancestry, Myheritage, Livingdna and gedmatch. A few tests are on multiple sites but not many, I'm only just getting to grips with MH and viewing shared matches on there, most of them are USA, Australia and Canada but only two are above 100cM, with the added problem the cM values via raw data tend to be inflated by 25-50% so they can be misleading. The ethnic estimate is almost the reverse on MH compared to Ancestry so I  don't put much emphasis on it, it's not the where it's the who that matters.

Closer to home is something I've thought long and hard about. On paper my grandfather is one of 6 but he is the only one to have children, my mother is the youngest of 9. There are descendants from 5 of those 9 but only one other line has tested, I've approached a couple of them about testing but had no luck. It's frustrating as it would be really useful to know if my mother and her sibs are full or half and it would give me some direction where to head towards.

I've got two unlinked maternal groups of matches, each of around 30 individuals and no apparent crossover between them, the only people I can say for certain that have those two dna strains are myself and I have to have got it through my mother, after that who knows. My mother or grandfather may have been adopted or be involved with an NPE, worst case scenario both were (I don't want to even go there!).

[Lisa in California]

…On paper my grandfather is one of 6 but he is the only one to have children, my mother is the youngest of 9. There are descendants from 5 of those 9 but only one other line has tested, I've approached a couple of them about testing but had no luck. It's frustrating as it would be really useful to know if my mother and her sibs are full or half and it would give me some direction where to head towards…

You may have already done so, but I thought I would offer a suggestion…
Would it be possible to offer to pay for the DNA kit and with their permission look into their results for them?  Do they know why you are asking?
When I asked my brother to have his DNA tested, he wasn’t interested.  After I offered to buy the kit and told him that he didn’t have to do any research, he agreed. (I believe our mum also explained why the test would help me. Of course, she readily agreed to taking the test as well.)  I couldn’t fault my brother for his lack of interest as I started researching when I was in college and he had heard decades of family tree details. 

Perhaps the folks you’ve talked to are apprehensive about what might be found or just don’t want their results known?

What a difficult situation for you; I hope you are able to soon get some sort of clarity.

Added: my father passed away before DNA kits were available. A relative on his side turned down my offer to be tested.  Having those results might have greatly aided in my search.  While I don’t have the mysteries that you face, I do know the frustration of knowing that answers could be out there, but just not in reach.

[Glen in Tinsel Kni]

One of my aunts did the tree years ago and linked the family to a Scottish Laird, her son or grandson did test and add it to Ancestry but has no tree and is inactive. I can't even be sure of his relationship to me as he's a Canadian (Quebec) birth sometime from 1945 onwards. The one line of the family I can really talk to just cling to the Scottish Laird story and won't be swayed from it. I've offered to buy the test and manage everything. I've had to sell my car and they're running round in Jags so it's not financial reasons from their end that I can see.  Maybe there is a secret they know and are keeping, my half sibs ran a mile when I appeared on the scene even though the only contact was email. 

[Biggles50]

DNA testing is key.

Siblings, senior relatives, 1C and 2C and if possible 3C included in the testing.

My brick wall is a 364cM match, they have a tree of 700 that I have created around them and the higher cM shared matches are in the tree.  Alas my Cousins are reluctant to test so the wall stays.

Try creating a Leeds Method chart and concentrate on the most likely matches

[Glen in Tinsel Kni]

I try to think of ways to get round the problems my tree presents. There are no living relatives from my parents' generation to test, half siblings and 1st/half first cousins are the best I can hope for.

The deep dive into the low cM matches has thrown up some interesting bits and bobs but I just wish I had another maternal test to compare my results to. I've just gained access to results of a paternal half 1c1r so will delve into those. I'm hoping I can see which matches relate just to my father and which relate to his mother wo is the MRCA.