Author Topic: Is this endogamy?  (Read 493 times)

Offline Eric Hatfield

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Is this endogamy?
« on: Thursday 04 May 23 05:25 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone, this forum has been immensely helpful to me many times, so I'm going to ask for advice one more time please.

I have been searching for years for the parents of my grandmother, Olive Clark, born January 1891 in Melbourne Australia, and then adopted without any records. Her mother was recorded as Mary McDonald, 19 (= born 1871), from Ballarat, and no father was recorded. I wasn't able to find Mary via BDM records (there were very many Mary McDonalds back then!). If you want to read more about it, see this thread Finding my grandmother's undocumented parents.

The advice I received here about using DNA inormation was very helpful and I now feel I have certainly identified my gran's mother, and the family of her father.

Using the Leeds method I found 4 matches in 3 families (all 2-3 or 3-4 cousin matches on Ancestry) and traced their trees back. They all had Agnes McDonald as a common ancestor, one of 10 children of Allan McDonald and Annie Foster. Allan and Annie's first daughter was Mary McDonald, born in 1871 and so fitting the information I had. So our common ancestors (Allan and Annie) would be 4-5 generations back from me and these matches which means we are indeed 3rd or 4th cousins.

I did the same with four 3, 4 or 5 cousin matches in two families (two mothers & daughters) on My Heritage, and their common ancestors were George Foster and Bridget Lydon, via two of their nine children. Again, this couple was 4-5 generations back. This led me to believe that it was likely that my common ancerstors with my matches were also George & Bridget, via another of their children, and that this son was Olive's father. Of course proving which son is much more difficult unless I find some descendents who also match my DNA. But the generations also agree with the cousin matches suggested by the DNA.

I hope this isn't too complex (hopefully I've been able to attach a diagram). But here's where my question comes in.

It appears that George Foster (on Olive's father's side) is the brother of Thomas Foster, who was Annie Foster's father (on Olive's mother's side). I think this because:
  • A George and Thomas Foster of the right ages (more or less) and both from Galway emigrated as unaccompanied passengers together on the same ship in 1842.
  • Two years later they both married women, also from Galway, whose names agree with two women who were on the same ship and unaccompanied.
  • Both said their father's name was George.
  • When Thomas married, the two witnesses were named Bridget and John, the same names as George's mother and brother.
If this is so, then Olive's parents, Mary McDonald and an un-named Foster, appear to have been cousins once removed. Which means that Olive (and thence probably me) inherited Foster DNA via both her parents.

So my problem is, does this endogamy make the cousin matches I have worked out unreliable? For example, does endogamy mean that the common ancestor on Olive's father's side might not be one of George and Bridget's children, but perhaps another sibling or even another generation back?

I lack the experience to really make sense of this information, but I'd dearly love to try. Thanks for any assistance you can offer.

Offline Eric Hatfield

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Re: Is this endogamy?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 04 May 23 07:07 BST (UK) »
In preparing this post and diagram, another possibility has just occurred to me (it should have occurred to me earlier!).

Perhaps Olive's father is totally unrelated, and my common ancestor with the matches who descend from George and Bridget is George Snr? That would explain all the relationships predicted from the DNA matches.

I thionk I may have jumped the gun. What do you think?

Offline Biggles50

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Re: Is this endogamy?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 04 May 23 16:12 BST (UK) »
Reading your other thread its good you are making such great progress.

In answer to your question Endogamy is more cultural inbreeding, ie specific ethnicities or clan, social group, caste etc.  One notable endogamous line is the Hapsburgs of Spain.

The other terminology is Pedigree Collapse and this is in practice is Cousins marrying either knowingly or unknowingly, and I have found in a few family trees that it tends to be Second Cousins and beyond where the interbreeding occurs.

The reality is that they are practically similar.

You may have reached the waiting game state where more DNA matches will be required to help in solving the puzzles.

Meanwhile do read up on DNA and upload the raw DNA data to the comparison website.

Offline Eric Hatfield

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Re: Is this endogamy?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 04 May 23 23:47 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your input. I'll keep working on this.

It was interesting. I thought I had it all worked out, I wrote my first post on this thread, prepared the tree diagram and posted it all up. Only then did I have the realisation that there was a simpler way to interpret the information.

I think this thread can be closed and I do some more work.


Offline brigidmac

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Re: Is this endogamy?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 23 June 23 04:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks for this topic

I found the diagram very useful

I have a Proven example of sibling sets marrying and  brother  A Married sister B whose brother B  married  he's sister A
Not a problem until grandson of AB married grandson of BA

Their child has 6 great grandparents instead of 8

I think it confuses the thru line function on Ancestry
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson