Martin - Carroll Families in Surrey and Woolwich, Kent UK

[JulieAE]

jonw65, I have an Ancestry tree, and have also completed a DNA test, I also had my aunt and uncle do DNA tests and a cousin, and have found cousins, and we all have Young DNA matches, I wonder if we have common ancestors?

[jonw65]

Hi
On the census, I don't know what site you are looking on. UK records are free on ancestry this weekend, and on there you can use the "Lived in" box, it will fill as Woolwich, Kent, England. Registration district is Greenwich.
Similarly, as a place of birth (though that requires the transcription to be correct!)

As birth certificates were only introduced in England and Wales in 1837 we are reliant on baptisms. Which don't tell us where someone was born. Usually it's in the same place, but in the greater London area we are looking at we can't be sure of that. 

What I am pondering is, how likely is it that there were two John Martin / Elizabeth Carroll couples around at the same time in what we would now call South London.
Yes, being Woolwich, it is possible, as Neale also suggested, that there is a military connection.
I will keep looking.

Do we know why James and Maria stayed in Turkey?
Jon

[JulieAE]

Hi Jon,

James and Maria had their first 5 children in Malta, then moved to Smyrna in Turkey where they had their next 4 children, my great grandfather Alfred being the 7th born. Alfred was born in 1876 and married an Armenian Josephine Devisian, they were there through all the devastation that happened. Alfred and Josephine had four children John my grandfather born 1900 Alexandria Egypt (Alfred was working in Egypt for the Egyptian Delta Light Railway as a Traffic Inspector) Malvina was born in 1904, then Germaine in 1906, then they came back to Smyrna Turkey and Adelaide was born 1908.

I think James and Maria were living in Istanbul in the 1920-1930's, as my grandfather John went and stayed with them for a while. James and Maria did come back to England but I am not sure when, I did hear a story that they were waiting to board a ship to go back to Malta but their luggage and all their belongings were stolen on the dock. So I don't know whether or not they landed back in Europe or stayed in England.

[JulieAE]

I use Ancestry, My Heritage, Find My past and Family Search and any other site suggested and that I find while searching. There are a lot of James and John Martin's I haven't found as many Elizabeth Carroll's. Were there any other areas in Woolwich named something different?

[jonw65]

Hi
I think the neighbouring parishes are Charlton (next Woolwich) and Plumstead. Probably they did not have very large populations.
Greenwich is nearby. If in doubt you can search the census by registration district, Greenwich and also Lewisham.

I don't think finding out about James and Maria in Turkey would be easy. Mind you, it's not proving easy finding James in England either.

I have followed that Southwark trail in case the Woolwich place of birth is misleading us. But unfortunately the possible Young connection, whether it is right or wrong for your James, has not got me anywhere so far.
Jon

[JulieAE]

Hi Jon,

Through DNA I have found found descendants of James and Maria in Turkey, Italy and Cyprus. Alfred left Josephine and the children about 1920 and remarried an Italian Anastasia Cassano they had a son who they named James Alfred Martin he was born in 1921 in Smyrna, Turkey, they moved to Egypt. My paternal family are all over the place. Thank you for helping me I really appreicate it. 

[jonw65]

Hi
It must make for a very interesting family tree, with people from many different countries. Hard to keep track of, perhaps!

There is a James Martin born 3 Feb 1829 and baptized St George the Martyr, Southwark, 25 Feb 1829.
Parents John and Elizabeth, abode Kent Street, father a Labourer.

Well, I have now got hold of that merchant seaman's ticket. And I think it is looking likely that the James Martin baptized in Southwark in 1829 is your man. What do you think?

Register ticket 416,811
James Martin
Born at St. George's in the County of Surrey 2nd day of Feby 1830
Capacity Ordinary Seaman
Age when ticketed 18
Height growing
Hair brown
Complexion light
Eyes grey
Marks Scar on rt leg
Can write Yes
First went to Sea (Blank)
(Has served in the Royal Navy - also Blank, so presumably no)
When unemployed resides at 30 High(t?) St
Issued at Shoreham 26 day of June 1848

All of the tickets on that page were issued at Shoreham.

So his date of birth is the same as you have, 2 Feb. On the baptism in Southwark it was 3 Feb (very close!)
I think James may have lost a year from his age on this record, and a couple more when he joined the Royal Navy. He would have been in his mid twenties in 1854 and probably decided to say he was a bit younger.
There seems to be a trail here from the marriage of John and Elizabeth to the baptism of James  to the sea record(s).

[JulieAE]

This may be my James, how do I find the merchant seamans ticket?

[jonw65]

It's in Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857, on findmypast, if you have that.
There are 8 James Martins born 1830, and he is the one born St George, Surrey, BT 113 / 209.
The transcript says his date of birth is 23 Jul 1830, how on earth they got that I don't know. It certainly is 2 Feb on the original.