Author Topic: Help with Working out DNA match  (Read 548 times)

Offline SueChris

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Help with Working out DNA match
« on: Sunday 14 May 23 07:10 BST (UK) »
Hi. A DNA match of 180 cm 3% shows as a 2nd or 3rd cousin relationship. Based on the family tree known relationship is 3rd cousin twice removed. Does the DNA match amount indicate another match in the same line potentially. Any info appreciated and views on this. Thanks

Offline AlanBoyd

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,577
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 14 May 23 08:26 BST (UK) »
I have a match of 172 cM which is called as 2nd cousin with a 60% probability. Looking down the table of other possible DNA relationships I see that 3rd cousin once removed is given a probability of <1%. So yes, it would seem unlikely that your match would be solely due to a 3rd cousin twice removed.
Boyd, Dove, Blakey, Burdon

Offline hurworth

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,336
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 14 May 23 10:02 BST (UK) »
It falls slightly outside the upper range for the relationship, so perhaps there's an additional relationship.

https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

There's quite a few Facebook pages dedicated to genetic genealogy that you may find helpful.

Offline Biggles50

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 14 May 23 17:36 BST (UK) »
DNA Painter does not even list a 3C2R as a possibility for a 180 cM match, and a 3C1R has a meagre 1% probability.

My highest 3C1R shares 90 cM with me and her link to me is verified by us both as we worked together for a few years.

I’d look to see if there is pedigree collapse or endogamy in the joint tree to account for the high cM.

I would also take a closer look at the Shared Matches


Online Cell

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,718
  • Two words that can change the world "Thank You"
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 16 May 23 09:35 BST (UK) »
180 is extremely  high for  a third  cousin twice removed , and extremely high for once removed too  - but not impossible.
I don't  have any known  third  cousins twice removed  , but  have  lots ( of  100% known
ones)  that are once removed

My highest ( 100%  proven)  of all my  third  cousins  once removed is  128cm , and his nephew( my 4th cousin ) is 92cm., which I think is 10% chance  and 8%.chance according to dna painter.
Where all  of my other of my other 100%  proven  third cousins  once removed  struggle to make even 50cm and sits nicely with .dna painter   , and  all my  other 4th  proven cousins are even lucky to make 30cm

Are you sure your match is twice removed?
It  is not impossible for a once removed third cousin, and I  wouldn't  totally rule out the twice removed  either .  I would be looking into being double related  if you're 100% , 100%   sure  your match  is a third cousin twice  removed.
 
Kind regards


Census information in my posts are crown copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.u

Offline phil57

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 16 May 23 12:28 BST (UK) »
There is always the possibility of outliers. If a probability is remote, but not impossible, someone must fall into that bracket. And the probabilities shown in DNA Painter rely on relationships reported by people like you and I, so they are to some extent dynamic and can be subject to change. But confirmation is of course another matter.

I have a match to an individual who I believe to be a 3C at 226 cM. There is a 3% probability of a match at that level in DNA Painter. The individual involved has failed to respond to my enquiries, but after spending more than a year researching his ancestry, I found only one possibility for an intersection of our trees - my GG Uncle, who for want of a better phrase, seems to have "put it about a bit", lived in the same street as my match's GGM. Not only that, but he had a relationship with the GGM's sister at around the same time as my match's GM would have been conceived, resulting in two children out of wedlock, and he later married her.

The father named on the GM's birth certificate seems to be a completely fictitious name, but had the same occupation as my GG Uncle.

Now I can't prove that is the relationship between us beyond a doubt, but it is the only likely possibility I can find. One fly in the ointment is a Great Uncle of mine who seems to have completely disappeared after the 1901 census. He was named as next-of-kin on his brother's army enlistment, but at "address unkown" and is one of my brick walls. However he would only have been 15 when my match's GM was conceived, and GGM would have been 34. Not impossible, but he doesn't appear in any censuses with any of my ancestors in that area after 1901.

My brother's match to the same individual is a more reasonable 131 cM.

I have one other 3C at 113 cM, but all the rest are in double figures bar one - at 9 cM and a proven relationship at a probability of 7% in DNA Painter.
Stokes - London and Essex
Hodges - Somerset
Murden - Notts
Humphries/Humphreys from Montgomeryshire

Offline Petros

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 May 23 08:06 BST (UK) »
I have a lot of 3c1R and 3c2R descended from one GGGF. My GGM being his youngest child.

the 3C1Rs range from 19 to 92 and 95 cM, while the only three 3Cs come in at 50, 58 and 90 cM!

Offline SueChris

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 17 May 23 08:45 BST (UK) »
Thanks everyone for your info and thoughts.

Offline AlanBoyd

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,577
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Working out DNA match
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 17 May 23 10:25 BST (UK) »
Just one more thought. As explained here in the notes on collecting and curating the data underlying DNA Painter, the data are susceptible to errors:

https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Shared-cM-Project-Version-4.pdf

Quote
Endogamy and Pedigree Collapse - Some relationships will be affected by endogamy and/or pedigree collapse, which will increase the amount of DNA shared by test-takers having a certain genealogical relationship. Although the collection form requests information about known endogamy and/or pedigree collapse, many contributors will not be aware of the endogamy and pedigree collapse in their tree. Additionally, some participants may have selected only one relationship although there were several known relationships.

If someone less careful than the OP had got this result they might well have submitted it as a 3C2R result, and thus extended the apparent upper limit for 3C2R.

Although the distribution of DNA relatedness shown by the data is clearly not normally distributed there is nevertheless a reported value for mean (36 cM) and standard deviation (27 cM). This puts a value of 180 cM as more than 5 standard deviations greater than the mean. This is statistically speaking, highly unlikely.
Boyd, Dove, Blakey, Burdon