John and Joseph Withars/Withers c1690

[Ratty2]

In his 1730 Will, Joseph makes bequests to his wife Rachel, and to his children: Joseph, Benjamin, and his daughter.
I thought his daughter's name was Sylvia, but now I wonder if she is Lydia. Have a misread the handwriting where the S could be a very loopy L?

[Ratty2]

I have John Withars married to Elizabeth Lambert in 1635.
If this is correct (and I have doubts) then they had three children:

Joseph tailor (baptised 1718), Benjamin (did he become the master tailor?) and Lydia (1721-c1785)

But then Joseph the tailor's Will dated 1730 (1690-1761).

Any clues please?
Cheers

[ciderdrinker]

Hello
I'm getting a bit confused here.
We know Joseph who married Rachel Brown in 1715 was born 1690 son of John.
John who married Elizabeth Lambert in 1635 would be far too early to be parents of Joseph and even older if they had Joseph 1718,Benjamin and Lydia 1721.
So forget them for now.
I can't see a Will for Joseph in 1730.Where did you find it? I'm assuming you mean the PCC Will 1761.

So we have Joseph and Rachel born c 1690 tailor
His brother John  (Joseph's Will 1761)
And brothers Thomas bapt 17.6.1695 Birmingham St Martin son of John (perhaps mentioned in Joseph's Will 1761 ,perhaps that Thomas was brother John's son.It doesn't say).
Benjamin the Master Tailor who married Sarah Wilkes  20.2.1725 (uncle in Joseph Withers Will 1774 and his children are mentioned as cousins in Lydia's)
Sister Sarah who married Mathias Soutrhwell 14.1.1719 (not John's daughter but sister)Buried 31.7.1763 Children Elizabeth 1720 ,Sarah 1723,JOHN 1726 (Lydia's Will) ,James 1732 and Sarah 1735.
I'm guessing John is the eldest.

And also in the parish
Joseph born c 1656 daughter Elizabeth 30.7.1681
Thomas and Elizabeth Flavel born c 1677  married Deritend 31.1.1702 children 1702-1720
William born c 1689  with a daughter Elizabeth 1714
John Senior  born c 1690 having children 1715-1730 .


That covers all the couples having children in Birmingham at St Martins 1680-1730

I think you are right with Joseph born 1690 son of John.
It would make sense that John was born c 1660 and his baptism might be missing because of the Protectorship.
And I think you are on the right track with John Wythers Admin 1681 and his with Joanna of Solihull.

Ciderdrinker

[Ratty2]

Hi Cidardrinker,
Thank you for all that detecting.

Re “Joseph born 1690 son of John”
I found Joseph Withers, 1730 Will at Ancestry: Wills and Probate; 1521-1860, Diocese of Birmingham and Coventry and Lichfield, Staffordshire, Warwickshire England, (Ancestry). The Will was Probated 31 October 1761.
I found another John baptized 31 March 1592, from Aston (FamilySearch); and a marriage of John Withers to Elizabeth Lambert for 25 April 1685. (England Marriages 1538-1973; 25 April 1685, Parish Marriages Mancetter Warwickshire (FindMyPast). A bit too early for this man's marriage marriage, I think.

Thanks for clarifying Benjamin. “Benjamin the Master Tailor who married Sarah Wilkes  20.2.1725 (uncle in Joseph Withers’ Will 1774 and his children are mentioned as cousins in Lydia's)”
I couldn’t figure out his generation.
By my reckoning Benjamin married three times: 1, to Mary Weston in 1733 (with 7 children, including 4 attempts to keep a surviving child named Benjamin), 2, to Elizabeth Guest (with 3 children), to Sarah Wilkes (with 6 children).
However, I found him also in the Jurors’ List 1774 as a butcher.

I also found Robert Withers who traded as a “taylor”(two references in Lydia’s Will)  at No.52 Edgbaston St during the 1770s. At this time, following the same trade, were Joseph Withers at No.7 St. Martin's Lane and Samuel Withers at No.26 Worcester Street.

The three tailor shops expanded into four under Samuel 26 Worcester street when he added Smallbrook St to his empire. His grandson, Edwin Withers, converted it into a tobacco business.

All good
David

[ciderdrinker]

Good Morning
There are two Benjamin Withers -
One the son of Joseph and Rachel Withers born 1723 who becomes a butcher .He marries Elizabeth Guest in 1747 at Curdworth.They have 3 children.She dies 13.10.1761 .He is the juroror  in 1774.

His uncle Benjamin the Master tailor is born in the 1690's and is brother of Joseph Withers who married Rachel Brown. He married Sarah Wilkes in 1725.She is buried 19.9.1730 .He then goes on to remarry after Sarah's death Mary Weston in 1733.He is described as a widower and she is a spinster of 22.It is by licence and his bondsman is his brother in law Mathias Southwell rindle? cutter. She dies 30 Sep 1756 .He remarries again 22.4.1772  as a taylor widower to Mary Hopkins widow.

There are 2 deaths for a Benjamin Withers 31.1.1780 and 13.1.1784 at St Phillips they are uncle and nephew but not definite info on which is which.

I would guess Robert the Taylor was bapt  30.9.1746 son of Robert and  the grandson of John taylor brother of Joseph who  married Rachel Brown .

Does that clear things up?

Ciderdrinker

[Ratty2]

Thanks very much.
Yes I believe that clears it up. I was getting confused.

It sounds like you have access to St Martin's register, is that so? As I'm writing a family history the references would be helpful.

Cheers

[ciderdrinker]

Hello
Yes my local Library has Ancestry and st Martins Birmingham is on there.

Ciderdrinker

[Ratty2]

Take a drink, ciderdrinker, with my thanks