Help with MacFhirbhisigh.

[Ghostwheel]

I was hoping someone could offer me some help checking two references to MacFhirbhisigh's genealogies that I found on logainm.ie. Maybe, getting a quick read on it, to see if it mentions the family I am after.

Not sure if it connects to anything.  Checked two earlier references for the townland: 1597, from the fiants, and c1639 from the Inquisitions and neither seemed to connect to the family.

Though the reference appears only once, it's the earliest location that I can associate with anyone in the family.  A priest in the family was ordained there in 1664.  And I read one claim that he was from that townland.  I also know he was considered to be from noble blood, and later became bishop of Kildare and Leighlin and the surrogate for the archbishop who was absent from Ireland and delegated his authority.

The references read:
DF 483.21
DF 1229.4

And seem to invoke the Irish placename:
go Cluain Caoin

Which has the modern English name Clonkeen, and is located in Co. Kildare.
https://www.logainm.ie/en/25496

The surname I am after is Dempsy or Dempsey.

The only two names from about that era that I know are John (born c1644, who later became a Bishop), and, I believe, his brother Charles (born ?, who later was a farmer at Coolelan, years unknown)

I do not know the names of their parents.  I know Charles had a son named Pat, who was living at Kilmurry in 1704, and who is the only clear close relative that John mentioned in his 1703 will, though he mentioned several Dempsys, most of which seem to have been priests.

The only one who was not obviously a priest was named Charles Dempsy of Lyle (near Monasterevin).  I have not been able to locate this place.  And I have guessed it was not his brother, as he specifies that Charles owes him money, but may keep 1/3, while giving 2/3 to his nephew Pat.

The will is quite curious and names the widow of the final chief as the executrix, and makes a condition of Pat's full inheritance that he continue to give her his allegiance.

Will begins on page 80 or 81:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Xqg0AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA81&dq=charles+dempsy+lyle&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinqrW_laL_AhV9KlkFHS3-Da4QuwV6BAgEEAY#v=onepage&q=charles%20dempsy%20lyle&f=false

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach
https://www.isos.dias.ie/UCD/UCD_MS_14.html

I would also appreciate it if someone could take a quick look at the Down Survey, if the townland appears on it, and give me the before and after names.  Unfortunately, the device I am on now does not allow me to input the right fields, and I can't figure out a technical solution.

Linked to this earlier post:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814524.msg6755056#msg6755056

[Skoosh]

Could it be Forbes?

Skoosh.

[Ghostwheel]

After looking carefully at this reference on logainm.ie:

Leabhar Mór na nGenealach: The Great Book of Irish Genealogies, compiled by Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh, 1- 5 Áit foilsithe: Dublin, Bliain: 1650c, Údar: Nollaig Ó Muraíle, Bliain foilsithe: 2003

I am thinking it refers to the modern volume published in 2003 or 2004 and not the manuscript.  Guessing it is not available online.

[Ghostwheel]

Can anyone check the Down Survey for me and see if Clonkeen or Lyle come up, and tell the before and after names?

https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php

https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/landowners.php

Still having technical problems with the website myself.

Clonkeen is in Carbury Barony and Carbury Civil Parish, Kildare.  Not sure about Lyle but possibly in the same.

[Sinann]

Clonkeran is on the Down Survey which is one of the names listed on logaim.ie, think it's in the parish of Moylerstonne (Mylerstown), don't know what you mean by the before and after names.
Can't see Lyle but some of the Baronies won't load.

[Ghostwheel]

Thanks Sinann,

I forget exactly how it works since it has been a few years since I used the site, and it does not seem to work well on my phone.

But when you get to the parish level on the maps.  I think there should be some option to view a sheet of the proprietors.   (A word that maybe begins with "T") I forget the exact word they use for it.  That is, the landowners before Cromwell.  This manuscript sheet has a description of the parish on the left side and a list of townlands, their acreage, and owners on the right side.  It lists their religion, often calling people 'Irish papists" or something like "Ir. pap.". These were generally the people to lose their lands.  But it also lists Protestants.

The names that appear on this list are the ones that the website, I believe  somewhat arbitrarily, calls 1641 landowners.  They are what I have called the "before names."

To get the "after names"(what the website calls "1670 landowners" , I think you might have to plug in the before names into the 1641 field.  I forget whether these are the people who were given the land, or whether it includes any who recovered their land.

https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/landowners.php

I'd still be interested in the names, even if neither was "Dempsy."

One thing I have just recently realized is that they weren't just randomly in Kilmurry. (Where they were in 1704) They were there because they were in the retinue of the Viscountess Dempsy (maiden name Anne Bermingham),  and she either owned the land, or had at one time.

[Ghostwheel]

Managed to see the name by zooming in on the map.  (I still can't input fields)

Curiously, it appears to be Dudley Colley who is called a Protestant.  (Both in 1641 and 1670) I am wondering, if he was secretly Catholic, if a priest was really ordained there in 1664.

But what is weird is that there are recorded a lot of English living there.  Perhaps, they are all "Old English", ie. Normans.

[Sinann]

Is this what you want

[Ghostwheel]

I'd be a bit curious if you can actually get a look at that manuscript page that lists the names for the parish.  I'd really like to know just one thing:

I'm wondering if he was actually called a papist when the survey and as made.

I think it is definitely possible.

As I recall the 1641 landowners religion listed by the website does not perfectly correspond to the religion listed in the manuscript.  Rather, it is what people claimed they were afterwards in about 1670, or maybe that they converted.

I have heard that Dudley Colley was a royalist, which I find really interesting.  Later on, I saw a reference where he was called a captain.  Not completely certain that means he was a captain in the Cromwellian war for the royalists, but I think so.

In that case, his land must have definitely been taken from him, and he must have gotten it back.