Author Topic: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940  (Read 2624 times)

Offline Katie Hiscock

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #9 on: Friday 23 June 23 20:20 BST (UK) »
hi andy

I saw that it says gunner thank you thats great. and g and o yes i agree with you also, I will have to look in to the detention things thank you for letting me know what it says, always easier with a second pair of eyes. what does it say under gunner ? is it gun meaning the same (gunner)

by the way do you know where 4depot is ? im assuming its somwhere in woolwich where he joined

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #10 on: Friday 23 June 23 22:05 BST (UK) »
what does it say under gunner ? is it gun meaning the same (gunner)
It's not  gun it's gnr, so yes short for gunner.
by the way do you know where 4depot is ? I'm assuming its somewhere in woolwich where he joined
He joined (as in enlisted) at Whitehall. I think there used to be a recruiting office there.  And I meant to mention previously that the figures in the left column represent the authority for the event listed in the Promotions, Reductions, Casualties column, so I'm not clear what 4 might mean in this context. Or maybe it's not a 4 but an H, meaning the RHA Depot. Up until 1924 what we now consider to be the Royal Regiment of Artillery (the Gunners) was in fact 3 separate Corps: the RHA, The Royal Field Artillery and the Royal Garrison Artillery. As you will have seen on that first line, after Depot it says RFA so I suspect he may have been sent to the RFA depot on the 18th November1 then on to the combined RFA/RHA depot two days later. The RHA alone was not large enough to have 4 separate depots, but the combined RHA, RFA and RGA might have had the numbers of recruits to warrant more than one depot. That said I did try to find out where the RHA depot was, and had no luck. It could have been Woolwich, Larkhill or possibly even St John's Wood Barracks as that was the London 'home' of the RHA at that time2.

As you've probably worked out by now, the RHA considered themselves (and still do to some extent) to be the elite Royal Artillery branch although by the end of World War One their role was nearly identical to the rest of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, that is to say the RFA and RGA. It's little like the relationship between the Brigade of Guards and the rest of the Infantry. So I wouldn't be surprised if the RHA trained their own recruits at that time and avoided sending them to the School of Artillery at Larkhill3.


Footnotes.
1. The 18th November 1919 was a Monday, so the 29th when he was posted to 'G' was a Saturday, and his posting to 'O' occurred on a Tuesday. I feel fairly sure a recruit course would not have started that close to Christmas, so he was probably still in some sort of holding troop awaiting the forming up of the full course in early January. This makes his detention over Christmas even more strange. Maybe he left the barracks without permission and came back drunk, or some similar minor infraction because he was bored and the punishment was intended to teach him a sharp lesson about Army life.
2. Wikipedia says "Before World War II, Royal Artillery recruits were required to be at least 5 feet 4 inches (1.63 m) tall. Men in mechanised units had to be at least 5 feet 8 inches (1.73 m) tall. They initially enlisted for six years with the colours and a further six years with the reserve or four years and eight years. They trained at the Royal Artillery Depot in Woolwich." However it's not clear whether that was the situation immediately after the First World War. The reference cited for that statement is just the Wikipedia entry for the War Office which makes no reference to Gunner recruit training, so it seems to be a mistake. The MOD(Army) website includes this detail under the School of Artillery (Larkhill): "1897 There has been a Military presence in Larkhill since 1897 when the War Office purchased several thousand acres of Salisbury Plain. This land was to be used by the Army – principally the Artillery. 1899 The first practice of firing took place. 1915 The School of Instruction for Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery was established. 1920 Several smaller schools were combined to form a new joint school at Larkhill".
3. I am distinguishing between recruit training which concentrates on turning a civilian into a soldier and which is largely the same across the whole army irrepective of which Corps or Regiment someone joins, and the special-to-arm or trade training which teaches the skills which differentiate between a gunner (of example) and an infantryman.

Offline Katie Hiscock

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 24 June 23 13:25 BST (UK) »
Hi andy

thanks you are super helpful, i hope to ask you about another part tonight.

Offline Katie Hiscock

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 24 June 23 16:16 BST (UK) »
hi andy is the top movement at 12.10 1923 cancelled ?  also do you know know what p.l.sgt is. i know its sergeant ?

promoted to something 21.10.1924 .......................... cant read

extended service to complete 12 years with the colours ? cant read the full sentance



sorry if that seems all jumbled im trying to do it line by line

katie x




Offline Andy J2022

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 24 June 23 18:21 BST (UK) »
Hi Katie,
Yes, his appointment to P L Sgt on 2nd April 1924 was cancelled although no reason is given here.
As for what a P L Sgt is, I am entirely guessing here. The significant clue is the word 'appointed'  and not promoted. My best guess is that it means Paid Local Sergeant. Local rank an appointment not a promotion. There are two types of local rank: paid and unpaid. Local rank is given where there is a vacancy in that rank within the establishment of the unit but the person appointed to fill the vacancy may not yet be fully qualified for promotion, but despite this, his commanding officer deems him to worthy and experienced enough to hold that rank temporarily. As an example, say one of the sergeants in the Battery went off on a long course at the School of Artillery at Larkhill for 6 months. That would leave a temporary gap in the Battery and the Battery Commander might recommend to the Commanding Officer that Bombardier Smith should be given local rank so that he can carry out the duties of the absent Sergeant. Bombardier Smith may not be fully qualified in terms of his own professional or educational qualifications for substantive promotion, but he is a good soldier and would benefit from the opportunity to join the Sergeants Mess and experience life as a Senior NCO, albeit temporarily. He would wear three stripes on his arm and have the authority of a sergeant while he had local rank. The matter of whether he would be paid at the rate for a sergeant would depend on whether the sergeant who was away on the course was still on the held strength of his unit. If he was then the bombardier holding the local rank wouldn't be paid as a sergeant. However if the absent sergeant was on a long term detachment (although due to return to the unit at some stage) then the pay of higher rank would be available for the local sergeant.

So the reason the first appointment got cancelled could have been to do with the sergeant whose vacancy he was due to fill no longer going off on detachment after all.

Anyway, your man was subsequently promoted (not appointed) to Sergeant, and as you can see, this was because a vacancy (the word used is 'vice') had occurred due to someone named Saggers either leaving the unit on posting or termination of his service, or possibly he might have been reduced in rank over a disciplinary matter. Either way a vacancy arose and your man was promoted to the substantive rank of sergeant.

As an aside, sometimes in the larger Corps like the Gunners, promotion is achieved by being posted to another gunner unit which has a vacancy in that rank.

The words after the  "...12 years with the colours" are 'Auth[ori]ty of RA Records [Office] dated 28 / 7 / 27'. What the sentence means is that he was on an open 12 year engagement with the option to leave at the 9 year point and serve the remainder with the Reserve (that is what the 9/3 in a circle means at the top of the form). By committing to extend his regular service to 12 years he would have gained a small pay increase, but relinquished the right to a free discharge before the 12 year point. This was a two way bargain between the soldier and  the Army. If he had been an inefficient soldier, the Officer in Charge of the RA Records Office could have used to opportunity to declare his services were no longer required after the 9 year point. 

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 24 June 23 19:27 BST (UK) »
Since he appears to have stayed with O Battery for some time, it's worth noting that Wikipedia has a short article about the battery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Battery_(The_Rocket_Troop)_Royal_Horse_Artillery

If you Google 'O Batterry RHA,' you will get quite a few references which may be useful. Most seem to cover the First World War, before your gf joined, but useful background I would suggest.

Offline Katie Hiscock

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 24 June 23 20:06 BST (UK) »
hi andy both parts of that was very interesting, if i may ask when it says the colours what does that mean exactly ? does it mean what i think it means (racist point of view ? ) Im just scanning another part in for you

many thanks

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 24 June 23 20:31 BST (UK) »
Hi Katie,

No, nothing racist. The colours of an Infantry regiment are the banners they used to take into battle and are highly important to the identity of the Regiment, even today. They are very elaborate 'flags' with the regiment's battle honours embroidered on them and are often bestowed on a Regiment by the reigning moanrch of the day.
Other non-infantry regiments and corps don't have Colours (the Cavalry have guidons for example). For the Royal artillery, their equivalent is their guns. Just as it was shameful for an infantry regiment to have its colours captured in battle, so it was for the Gunners to have their guns captured.

Service with the Colours thus came to mean service in the Regular Army, irrespective of the actual regiment or corps a soldier was / is in. Colour service is used to distinguish between Regular and Reserve service. 

Offline Katie Hiscock

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Re: royal horse artillery j battery 1930-1940
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 24 June 23 20:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Andy

Here is the next part of the same page

First word i can not read it begins with a y  any ideas ??

i can see he is in o battery that easy and also a sergant which is great

but why are they writing the dates on the right hand side weird, my husband thought it said 268/7 then 12 over 28 ??

after that he is in a unit that looks like 6y ybde with RA (T) underneath attached for all purposes and a similar bit beneath that, it says paid A/BQMS

I wont go any further untill you have read this,

many thanks i cant thank you enough

katie