James Ramsay and Ann Low, Catholics brick wall

[History Lives]

Hi all, my 3x great grandparents James MacDonald and Ann Ramsay married in Arbroath in 1865. James was certainly Catholic, from County Tyrone, Ireland, I'm not sure about Ann's family.

The marriage record lists Ann's parents as James Ramsay, weaver in Pathhead, and Ann maiden surname Low. I can't find out much more at all about James and Ann Ramsay nee Low, and have been unable to find a marriage record in either Catholic or Church of Scotland records despite trying a few spelling variations for Ramsay and Low. Haven't been able to find the baptism for the young Ann either.

They may have been living in 1851 in Forfar, with James' birth estimated around 1800 in Dysart. The occupation is right with him being a weaver but can't find them before or after this date

Would appreciate a second pair of eyes on this one in case I've missed something. Thanks in advance!

[ruthhelen]

I'm not sure you're going to find a marriage for James Ramsay and Ann Low - or baptisms for their children - as it looks likely they weren't married.

This does appear to be them in 1851 in Dundee Road, Forfar:

James Ramsay, head, 50, handloom weaver, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, wife, 31, winder, Dysart, Fife
James Ramsay, son, 10, scholar, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, daughter, 6, scholar, Dysart, Fife
David Ramsay, son, 1, Forfar, Angus

I haven't had any luck tracking down a death for James Ramsay senior, Ann Low or James Ramsay junior. However, David Ramsay died aged 15 in 1866 in Alyth, Perthshire. On the death record he is described as illegitimate, with James Ramsay (deceased) being the 'reputed father' - the record was signed by Ann Low, mother.

Ruth

[Neale1961]

This does appear to be them in 1851 in Dundee Road, Forfar:

James Ramsay, head, 50, handloom weaver, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, wife, 31, winder, Dysart, Fife
James Ramsay, son, 10, scholar, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, daughter, 6, scholar, Dysart, Fife
David Ramsay, son, 1, Forfar, Angus

1841 census I think this is probably the same James Ramsay
With children from an earlier marriage.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f05f4040b9d6e9be0aa/james-ramsey-1841-fife-dysart-1799-?locale=en

•   There is a burial in Dysart 24/01/1841 for Catrin Ramsay / Willson (age 40) who might be that previous wife. You would need to see if there is any information on the record.
•   There is a marriage for a Catherine Wilson to a James Ramsay in Dysart 17 Jan 1819.
•   There are no obvious baptisms for their children, but there are possible death registrations that might match the three girls.

[Neale1961]

 However, David Ramsay died aged 15 in 1866 in Alyth, Perthshire. On the death record he is described as illegitimate, with James Ramsay (deceased) being the 'reputed father' - the record was signed by Ann Low, mother.

Do you have a death certificate for James Ramsay?
There is a death registration in Alyth 1859 for a James Ramsay (age 61 – mother Briscoe)

Have you found a death for the mother Ann Low? I didn’t see one, either.
If that is James death in 1859, I wonder if she married again? She would only have been in her late 30s, and if so, her death may have been recorded under another surname.

[ruthhelen]

Do you have a death certificate for James Ramsay?
There is a death registration in Alyth 1859 for a James Ramsay (age 61 – mother Briscoe)

Have you found a death for the mother Ann Low? I didn’t see one, either.
If that is James death in 1859, I wonder if she married again? She would only have been in her late 30s, and if so her death may have been recorded under another surname.

I thought that might be him - but it's a different James Ramsay.

Ruth

[Neale1961]

Possible 1841 census for Ann Low
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f10f4040b9d6e9bf41f/anne-low-1841-fife-dysart-1822-?locale=en

AND

1851 census backstreet Pathhead, Dysart
Ann Law 59 weaveress, born Cockpen Edinburgh
Margaret Law 16 daughter weaveress, born Dysart
William Black 8 grandson, born Dysart

Possible birth for Margaret LOW born 26/8/1834, baptised 8/ 5 /1836 in Dysart - daughter of John Low and Anne Honeyman

[wivenhoe]

Image of marriage certificate from inline family tree -

31 July 1865 at 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath County of Forfar Established Church of Scotland

MacDONALD James   (X) bachelor   labourer   31y  usual res: 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath
Father: John MacDONALD farmer in Tyrone (deceased
Mother: Mary MacDONALD  mms O'NEILL (deceased)
Witness to mark of John MacDONALD......Edward G ANDERSON   John RODGERS


RAMSAY  Ann  (X) spinster  flax spinning mill worker  22y usual res: 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath
Father: James RAMSAY weaver in Pathhead (deceased)
Mother: Ann RAMSAY ms LOW
Witness to mark of Ann RAMSAY.... Edward G ANDERSON   John RODGERS

Witnesses........Joseph COLLINS    Margaret COLLINS

[ruthhelen]

Possible 1841 census for Ann Low
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f10f4040b9d6e9bf41f/anne-low-1841-fife-dysart-1822-?locale=en

AND

1851 census backstreet Pathhead, Dysart
Ann Law 59 weaveress, born Cockpen Edinburgh
Margaret Law 16 daughter weaveress, born Dysart
William Black 8 grandson, born Dysart

Possible birth for Margaret LOW born 26/8/1834, baptised 8/ 5 /1836 in Dysart - daughter of John Low and Anne Honeyman

If that's the correct Low family, then it looks like our Ann Low was married previously - the grandson William Black is the son of William Black tin plate worker and Ann Low. William Black and Ann Low were married on 17 July 1841 in Dysart. Their son William was born about 1843, although there is no baptism that I can see.

William Black junior married Mary Ann Thomson in Tain in 1870. He was a stone mason and then superintendent of the water works at Edinburgh. He died in 1911.

On his marriage record, his parents are noted as William Black, tin plate worker (dec) and Ann Low (dec).

So, time for a bit of speculation 

If this is the right Ann Low, did her first husband die and then she took up with James Ramsay? If that's the case, then it seems probable that James Ramsay, aged 10, who appears with the family in 1851, is actually the son of James Ramsay's first wife Catherine Wilson, who died in 1841. And Ann left her son, William Black to be raised by his grandmother?

Still doesn't help with finding a death for Ann Low. She was still alive in 1866 when her son David died in Alyth. If we are to believe William Black's marriage registration in 1870, she was dead by then. Her mother, Ann Low (nee Honeyman) died in 1870 in Leslie, Fife.

Ruth

[Neale1961]

The kirk sessions for Dysart up to 1842 are available on ScotlandsPeople.
Perhaps have a look to see if the names Low or Ramsay or Black appear at all.