Help finding Hannah Quate birth record

[scotmum]

Hopefully you will find this is the 'missing' death certificate, mistakenly or otherwise (depending on what was actually written down at time), indexed under surname 'Jane':

D/1937/5/1001/18/57   Hannah   Jane   4th December 1937   69      Female   Antrim(pre-1973 Q4)

I have empathy with your quest, as back in 2014 I had a similar 'missing' death cert for a 1920s death. Like yours, there was proof of burial and an entry on PRONI will calendar, plus no suggestion that death had happened outwith NI.

 I began a dialogue with GRONI, who kept insisting the death must have been outwith NI as they had "checked all possible variations and there is no trace of the death having been registered in Northern Ireland". They also subsequently stated ""It is not that the death registration is missing but that it was not registered."

Anyhow, as I persevered in getting them to keep trying, and especially that they again compare manual records used at time of digitisation, with resulting digitisation indexes, one member of staff went the extra mile and eventually discoverd the record, badly mistranscribed. Whilst thanking them, I did make the suggestion that their then (and still), current search system was too restrictive. Like with my example, had you been able to search purely using forename and exact date of death, the possible record I have highlighted above, would have been discovered more quickly, allowing you to rule it in or out much sooner.

[Jon_ni]

Scotmum
I do agree with that statement. QUB digitised GRONI's records 2009-11 and they seem to rely on them entirely and not make any recourse to the old paper book indicies.
The English and Welsh GRO is similarly restrictive on their system requiring a surname but the indices are online till 2005 on Ancestry, FindMyPast, FreeBMD etc. The Scottish search system is better but only gives you year and some mother's maiden surnames (those are the the most prone to transcription errors as only written once on a birth entry). No old Vol/page online indices are available for NI post 1921.

What was digitised by GRONI appears to be the original Birth, Death and Marriage Ledgers. They have no loose leaf quarterly copies prior to 1922 just the original bound books which were kept at Local then District level when full (they should have quarterly copies 1922 until they became digital).
There are differences, especially in marriages as copied by the ministers - not always an exact replica of spelling, especially in the early years reading a book in poor lighting and writing on loose sheets & who needed to go to Specsavers.

I've been comparing geneology.ie marriage images with GRONI using http://www.irelandgen.com/tools/gro_img_nav.php and there are some entire marriage books missing on GRONI's system the worst being Linenhall Street Presby, Belfast, marriage books 1-5 1845 to 1865 (at least) GRONI have no record of in their index. St John's Tyrella CoI, no entries found on GRONI index 1846, 48, 72, 75, 1910, 1913, 1915. But also the 1st Book of Newtownards Registrar's Office and a few other small meeting houses where marriages occurred so infrequently is hard to find more than the one or two entrys on the page to cross-check.

Books did get stolen https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09512/5447813.pdf but they still had the other one to copy again in the church and were issued another pair of two. Churches burnt down and were blitzed - that was the point of the quarterly copies, always storage in 2 places apart from the last few months.

So did they miss scanning some books or are the books missing, I intend asking them.
Along why why a QC was not performed to check for impossible dates - there are entries Jan-Mar 1845 before Civil Marriage Reg started. Of the 30 odd I have come across only 2 have been a period error of Jan 1845 instead of Jun 1845 (made by the Downpatrick Registrar who misunderstood proceedures & copied all the Church marriages into his book 1845 & 1846, so there are 2 copies in Dublin & 2 in GRONI of them, one written by the Rector/Curate and the other by the Registrar - the church entry says Jun badly but is after May and before Aug). All the rest are errors and I purposefully have not reported some yet.
M/1862/B1/418/19/35 Robert McDonald & Rankin indexed 18th February 1845 Belfast actually 18 Feb 1862.
M/1907/E1/1766/4/56 Mary Magill & Moorhead indexed 29th March 1845 Lisburn actually 28 March 1907.

Some errors are both ref year and marriage year and they don't change the ref. when correct the date so there is a difference then.
M/1919/Y1/2198/1/12 Oliver McFarland & Ballantine 24th August 1919 Omagh actually 24 Aug 1911 - advised & corrected from 1919 to 1911 without any change to ref code.
Also R.C. marriages registered by return of signed paperwork following ceremony, well some grooms were tardy and didn't till weeks or months or a few years later (or not at all hence only in the R.C. NLI images). The Ref year is the registration year for those, so may correctly differ from the marriage date. Same for by Special Licence married 28th Dec 1900 & registered 3 Jan 1901 will have M/1901/

https://www.nisra.gov.uk/sites/nisra.gov.uk/files/publications/1934.pdf
https://www.qub.ac.uk/research-centres/CentreforDataDigitisationandAnalysis/Research/ProjectsCompleted/2012-2013/#d.en.1005079

I don't intend doing any sort of cross-check of births & deaths but like you have burials and newspaper notices with no registration, however, a burial could legally proceed before a registration until 1926 (England & Wales, perhaps later N.I.).
A distant relative's death was registered Monaghan 21 Oct 1930 11˝ months after his death 6 Nov 1929 as reported in Newspapers and probate calendar but recorded as death 6 Nov 1930 on the quarterly copy image online so according to GRO Dublin his death was registered before he died.
In your case seems to have been a spelling error and for Grohls-wife an omission of surname.

[Elwyn Soutter]

I attended a talk given by the head of GRONI some years ago (Kathie Walker). She mentioned that the original BDM books have been stored away and are no longer routinely accessible to staff. Flipping them upside down to photocopy entries (as used to be done) together with the general wear and tear from continual handling meant they were starting to deteriorate. So there’s now a reluctance to get them out unless that’s absolutely unavoidable.

In addition to books being overlooked or otherwise lost, there are some that didn’t send copies of their marriages to the local Registrar eg many from St Patrick’s in Belfast in the early 1900s, and so overall there are many gaps.

[Jon_ni]

Elwyn
I asked the young guy supervising in the search room few months back, he had never seen the originals and didn't know where they were, I didn't ask anyone more senior who may have worked there longer.
St Patrick's R.C.? Have certainly seen that with individuals and their marriages, one party on NLI images registered GRO and the next not etc. so a fault of the groom / proceedures / owing to the
Clergy who celebrated the marriages having declined to sign the certificate. But the Books themselves as completed by the Sub-District Registrar hopefully have their entirety scanned and should exist being stored, once filled, in the stipulated strongroom constructed in each Workhouse [or whatever that got changed to by mid 20thC, NHS & then Council Offices]

Licensed Locations issued books all have their own unique codes 418 = St Annes.
1st marriage 1st book M/1845/B1/418/1/1 and by 1935 onto their 186th marriage book M/1935/B1/418/186/135, the final digit being the printed row number in the registers.
R.C. marriages are coded by Sub-District. 2326 = St Patrick's R.C. Donegall St & Holy Family R.C. Belfast, but in rural areas could be 3-5 chapels in a Sub-district like Meigh, Mountnorris, Loughgall, Keady, Dirraw.

In England whilst the majority order certs from GRO Southport there is the option of requesting a certified copy of an entry from the Local marriage books eg Oxford or Warwick as advocated by https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/localbmdproject so whilst can understand the wear and tear aspect they shouldn't be locked away completely and neglected.
A 1967 marriage and a 1974 could still be requested by the parties themselves, or their children dealing with their estate, and would never be found in a 5 year search of the index seeing they are listed as occurring 1845 and 1874 well outside that range. I picked these errors out by cutting the ref code down to the year in excel & saying if = marriage date "" else "NO". A computer could have done it as a QC of a set of church books during the digitisation project, bit more complex globally now given later R.C marriages such as Patrick Feeney marrying 1910 but only handing in his cert 1919 and similarly lengthy for the next one https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09670/5506951.pdf
The majority seem to be within a few days or week of the event. Husband to deliver or post within 3 days to the local Registrar, or be fined, was supposedly required per the 1864 introduction and circular letter to clergy in appendix https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/birthsdm/archivedreports/P-VS_1864.pdf

[Grohls-wife]

Hi, you have Ellen Jane and Sarah down as Greenlees, was this on the census?

no I was pasting info from census and births & deaths into notepad, that is mother's maiden surname on births as you had already said, was checking the original images myself.

Residence on marriage is typically the Townland but in that area have seen the hamlets used instead so looked on the old OS 6" maps on PRONI and saw her residence on the cert was Myra and his Brookfield, par of Kilbride. The road past the school is Moyra Rd today and the collection of houses marked as Moyra on the 1902-50 odd maps.

Hannah Jane & the Quaite's burial plot is actually on Everafter
https://discovereverafter.com/profile/17754296

Hannah J Quaite. Date of Birth - Unknown. Date of Death 4 Dec 1937.
Date of Burial - Unknown. Age 69. = 1868

Plot Old/30. Looks like a double-triple width plot with no headstones, but possibly a marker for the Thompsons of the 1970's.

Others in this plot
    Thomas Quaite Died 10 Dec 1894
    Mary Quaite Died 28 Jun 1915
    Thomas Cleverly Died 26 Jul 1916
    William Quaite Died 5 Jun 1918
    James Quaite Died 12 May 1927 aged 64.
    Mary Quaite Died 18 Apr 1946
    Sarah Quaite Died 12 Feb 1966
    Alexander Thompson Died 4 Jun 1979
    Margaret Thompson Died 4 Oct 1970

Yes this is my great grandfather and grandmothers Thompsons grave, I knew there were Quates also buried in there but I didn't know of Thomas Cleverly! Wow thankyou so much for all the information you have provided, it's almost coming together Greenlees is making sense now, I am going to gather all of this information up and research everything

P.s I have visited the grave, you're correct it doesn't have a headstone, I have wondered why? Perhaps money was an issue back then? 

[Grohls-wife]

Hopefully you will find this is the 'missing' death certificate, mistakenly or otherwise (depending on what was actually written down at time), indexed under surname 'Jane':

D/1937/5/1001/18/57   Hannah   Jane   4th December 1937   69      Female   Antrim(pre-1973 Q4)

I have empathy with your quest, as back in 2014 I had a similar 'missing' death cert for a 1920s death. Like yours, there was proof of burial and an entry on PRONI will calendar, plus no suggestion that death had happened outwith NI.

 I began a dialogue with GRONI, who kept insisting the death must have been outwith NI as they had "checked all possible variations and there is no trace of the death having been registered in Northern Ireland". They also subsequently stated ""It is not that the death registration is missing but that it was not registered."

Anyhow, as I persevered in getting them to keep trying, and especially that they again compare manual records used at time of digitisation, with resulting digitisation indexes, one member of staff went the extra mile and eventually discoverd the record, badly mistranscribed. Whilst thanking them, I did make the suggestion that their then (and still), current search system was too restrictive. Like with my example, had you been able to search purely using forename and exact date of death, the possible record I have highlighted above, would have been discovered more quickly, allowing you to rule it in or out much sooner.

WOW thankyou so much for this! I never would have thought to look using forename, I totally agree with the limitations on the search system! If I were able to search my exact date or forename only it would've been so much easier and solved alot sooner. Thanks again for this, I'm blown away with the amount of help I've received so far   

[Jon_ni]

P.s I have visited the grave, you're correct it doesn't have a headstone, I have wondered why? Perhaps money was an issue back then?

Although there are many cemeteries and graveyards with ancient headstones my own experience is that prior to the mid-20thC they weren't considered a necessity perhaps a luxury. Despite funeral notices confirming earlier internments 1st headstones are 1950's & 60's, only some backdated to include earlier. From the aerial view many others there have no headstone.
Modern Roselawn most have headstones or urn; older City cemetery + Glenalina Extension has lots without. Family members knew where the plot was, from the size some Quaite planned ahead. The Graveyard dates back to before the 1830's.

If you view the death image on GRONI be interested to hear if it says 'Hannah Jane Quaite' in the box.

Just worked out why the Quaites show on Everafter and not when use the Antrim & Newtownabbey site. There are 2 Kilbride Cemeteries on Everafter. One has an email address of
cemeteries @ antrimandnewtownabbey.gov.uk
the other kilbridechurchoffice @ gmail.com matching the one on https://www.kilbridepresbyterian.org

Leaving the name fields blank and doing a search on both on Everafter & trying a few names on ANBC's portal, as might be anticipated, only the ones with @antrimandnewtownabbey appear on their site. This is not a front vs back difference as there is a mix of Old/number and Letter/number in both (the blue balloon is often on the wrong plot). Seems strange to have a haphazard mix of church & council in both sections with roadside signage saying ANBC https://goo.gl/maps/xbAaq2AAHs2bc2KfA

http://www.doaghancestry.co.uk/churches-graveyards/ supported by the Council says
"Kilbride graveyard has been a place of burial for centuries. Though Kilbride Presbyterian Church is located beside the old graveyard it has no connection with it other than the fact that families associated with this congregation would have been buried here. The graveyard is in the care of Newtownabbey Borough Council."

There is a very large scale plan map on Findagrave, matching the aerial drone view on Everafter.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2015/8/CEM2564143_1420827580.jpg

[Grohls-wife]

Your tree might have expanded a bit 

Bella,1875 of Dunamoy, Rashee illegitimate daughter of Jane Greenless registered by Catherine Greenless https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03093/2133935.pdf

James Craig Blair 17 May 1880 (Greenlees) / Margaret Ellen Blair 27 Aug 1882 (Greenlees) / Martha Blair 30 May 1885 (Greenlees) at Douglasland, died aged 9 1895 / Samuel Blair 27 Oct 1887 (Greenlees) at Kilbride, Kilbride.

1901 census is a struggle though for them & children unless https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05799/4640655.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Kilbride/Village_of_Burnside/919126/

Margaret Ellen & David Cleverly + 2 others are also interred Kilbride https://discovereverafter.com/profile/17752905 David was 71 1960 (1889, but actually 1887 Hastings, Sussex).

Thomas Quaite, the 1st internment (online that is), aged 16 died 10 Dec 1894 Burnside, Kilbride & registered by James - who is he, must have been born year of James & Hannah's marriage - nephew?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05952/4691360.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02945/2078691.pdf

David Cleverly / D Cloverly Service number 8016 & 6392676
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/LIVES/857786 extracted from info on
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/857786 check the other tabs
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/WO363-4/7303396/14/340 WW1 Burnt Records

Some interesting contents in that. Thomas's death cert 1916, Baptismal cert St Anne's, Belfast.
David born 23 Jan 1887 attested c.3 Sep 1904 underage at 17 7mo saying was 18 7mo and mother requested him discharged as underage and attached his birth cert. David signed a statement he wished not to be discharged and decision was put to the GOC who approved & overruled mother.
Was re-mobilised 6 Aug 1914 but discharged unfit 1916. Elizabeth was 1st child.

I have found James, Margaret and Samuel Blair and Bella is also listed but she is recorded as Smyth! http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballyclare/Kilbride/918395/

Mother and Father not listed on the census at the same home as the children, James is acting head of household, so parents may have died or your link to James Blair living on his own 1901 could still be a possibility.

It's definitely looking like Hannah Quate was born illegitimately as Jane Greenlees, the evidence is coming togther, Quates, Greenless and Blairs all seem to be linked, I hope I am right though?

Thankyou so much for all the help you have provided, I will continue researching!

[Jon_ni]

I felt reasonably certain that the 1899 death of Jane Blair was her at Douglasland, Kilbride aged 46, with Samuel 60 1901 a good possibility as Jane was 'married' 1899 rather than widow.
Those certainly look like the 3 Blair children + illegitimate Bella.

John Blair was a widower at 19 Aug 1878 marriage to Jane so quite possibly older, looking for a wife to assist in the home with any former children when he was out working.
His 1st wife Eliza (35) only died Douglasland 24 Jun 1878
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020514/7198629.pdf

There is a Newmill hamlet in Ballywee and this death, obviously the age is way out from 1901 census though https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05596/4572784.pdf but if you can't find him 1911...

John Blair was from Ballyvoy, Kilbride on the 1878 marriage. The following is the reply to a query about Ballyvoy townland appearing in 1880s marriages also at Kilbride Presbyterian Church:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788140.msg6446943#msg6446943

The name of the townlands of Owensland & Douglasland are not recorded prior to the creation of the first-edition Ordnance Survey 6-inch maps c.1830 and appear to have originally formed part of a larger (now obsolete) townland the name of which is recorded as Ballyvoy in the Ordnance Survey Memoir of 1836 https://www.ulsterplacenamesociety.org/the-project