Author Topic: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?  (Read 663 times)

Offline genealogyem

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What does it mean if the Register General of BMD published a notice for an applicant to submit evidence for the births of his children who were born before 1854?

My ancestor David Sword lived and worked in Edinburgh as an iron and brass founder. He moved away when the children were relatively young and it is unclear how much contact he had with his wife and two sons who remained in Dundee.  In 1868 the following notice (transcribed below) was published in the newspaper, and then was re-published several years later in 1871 (implying that he did not submit the required evidence). Despite the re-publication, I have not been able to find any evidence that his sons births were ever registered. Approximately 5 months after the second notice was published he and his wife left Scotland. The newspaper notices have me very confused because they make it sound as if David filed the petition to register his sons but then did not want to submit the evidence that was required to fulfill the registration. Would it have been possible that his wife or sons made the request and he didnt want to support it?

Dundee Courier
Tuesday May 12 1868
Page 1
Notice
A PETITION has been presented to the Sheriff of Forfarshire at Dundee David Sword, Ironfounder, Fountainbridge Foundry, Edinburgh, and residing in Edinburgh, for warrant to the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Scotland, to Register the Births the Petitioner's Sons, David and James, born respectively on 12th December, 1845, and 29th June, 1849; and the Sheriff-Substitute has appointed intimation of the said Petition be made at once in each of the Dundee Advertiser and Dundee Courier and Angus Newspapers, and the Petitioner to adduce evidence in support of his Petition; and parties interested to be heard, within the Sheriff Court-House, Dundee,

Online Dundee

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 27 July 23 01:10 BST (UK) »
Submitting the evidence would have been easy enough as both boys were documented when they were baptised.  Both were born before civil registration began so why did the parents want a retrospective birth registration?

Parents were married in Dec 1844 so they weren't illegitimate.  Was Elizabeth with another man while David was absent and he was trying to make sure that he was officially documented as their father?

Have you tried to find if the original petition still exists?

Debra  :)

Offline genealogyem

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 27 July 23 01:36 BST (UK) »
I know based on census records and city directories that David moved to Edinburgh around 1851 so he was more than likely living with his wife when both sons were born. I have not found any evidence that David or Elizabeth were ever involved in other relationships while they were living apart, although that is still a possibility because they did live apart for nearly 20 years!

If it was as easy as providing the baptismal records, then why did he not do that? Also were retrospective birth registrations a common request?

Do you know where I would be able to find original petitions? I have been able to find baptismal record but not the birth records on ScotlandsPeople.

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 27 July 23 01:43 BST (UK) »
Have you looked at the actual images of the baptisms?  Might they be the retrospective registrations?  Looking at this example for Janet HUTCHISON there is nothing in the indexing that would catch your attention as being a neglected entry.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/register-of-neglected-entries

Debra  :)


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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 27 July 23 01:51 BST (UK) »
There is actually, the first number in the reference is different from the others in Dunfermline.

Your David and James also have different numbers - 310 when all the others in Dundee start with 190 apart from a few which might also be retrospective.

Debra  :)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 27 July 23 07:28 BST (UK) »

"Approximately 5 months after the second notice was published he and his wife left Scotland".

Where did they go?.  Did sons David and James go with them?

Offline GR2

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 27 July 23 07:49 BST (UK) »
It might be worth sending your query to ScotlandsPeople.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 27 July 23 10:21 BST (UK) »
were retrospective birth registrations a common request?
Other than the Register of Neglected Entries, I have never come across anything like this before.

Where did they go when they left Scotland? Could they have been sponsored by some sort of England-based organisation or employer who required evidence that they were squeaky clean, but failed to understand that civil registration only started in 1855 in Scotland? But even if that were the case, why was it necessary to go to court to get the Registrar General to 'register' the births using information in a source held by the very same Registrar General? All very strange.

I did have a look in the NRS online catalogue but found nothing. It might be necessary to find and search the records of Dundee Sheriff court.

Take GR2's advice; ask SP.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Register General requesting evidence for births that occurred before 1854?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 27 July 23 10:23 BST (UK) »
What does it mean if the Register General of BMD published a notice for an applicant to submit evidence for the births of his children who were born before 1854?
I read it as David Sword going to court to get a warrant to compel the Registrar General to register the births.

That is, it was instigated by David Sword, not by the Registrar General.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.