Mother of William Love

[Lavender13]

Hi everyone, back again. Hope someone can look at this with fresh eyes. I'm struggling to piece together the info I have.

My 3rd GG William Love (1842-1903) his father was William Love, Shoemaker (1812-856) Son of Alexander Love, and Grace Grobie or Grace Thomson depending on which record you look at.


William appears on the 1851 census with his parents and siblings living at 21 Gibson Street in Glasgow


HEAD Will M Lov, 39, Shoemaker, born Glasgow abt 1812, Occupation Shoemaker
WIFE Grace Love, 21,  abt 1830, born Shire, Galloway, Occupation Seamstress
SON Alex Love, 13, abt 1838, born Glasgow, Occupation Apprentice Shoemakee
SON  Will M Love, 9, abt 1842, born Glasgow, Scholar- My 3rd GG
SON Richard, 2, abt 1849, born Glasgow
LODGER John McNaughton 9 abt 1842 born Glasgow
LODGER Margaret McNaughton 4 abt 1847, born Glasgow


There is no census for William for 1861. He dissappears until 1865 when he marries Agnes Cameron on 23rd of June according to the forms of the established Church of Scotland. William was 21 and a House Painter living at 47 King Street. Agnes also lives at 47 King Street and is a Cottom Power Loom Weaver aged 19.
His marriage certificate lists his parents as William Love, Shoemaker, and Grace Thomson (deceased).


I have all of the census records until 1901. Will not list their info here as I'm focusing on his parents. William dies at 34 Carrick Street on 14 March 1903 aged 61 of Diarrhoea & Cardiac Failure. His parents on this record are William Love & Grace Crosbie. Information is Janet Reeves, his daughter.


There is no birth certificate for William but
There is a Marriage for whom i believe are his parents Grizel (Grace) Cosbie and William Love, a shoemaker from Calton in Barony, Glasgow, Lanarkshire on 32st July 1835.

There is a census which I believe his father and Grace Crosbie are on in 1841:


William Love, 25, abt 1816, Shoemaker, born Lanarkshire Scotland, Address New Vennel
Grace Love, 25, 1816, Cotton HLW, Lanarkshire Scotland,
Alexander Love, 15, 1826, Shoemaker, born Lanarkshire Scotland
Elizabeth Love 15, 1826, born Lanarkshire Scotland, Cotton PLW
Alexander Love 3, 1838, born Lanarkshire Scotland,
Elizabeth Love 1, 1840, born Lanarkshire Scotland
Grace Crosbie 15, 1826, born Lanarkshire Scotland, Cotton PLW


I found Alexander Love who was 3 in this census. He appears on the 1851 census with his brother, my 3rd GG William. As I stated above.  Can't find him on the 1861 census but he then married Emily McIntyre on 24th August 1868. He was a House Painter ( Just like William my 3rd GG) and aged 27. He lived at 48 Gallowgate St.
Parents listed were Wiliam Love, Shoemaker (deceased) and Grace Crosbie.


The next record for Alexander is his death when he is 37 on 4th May 1879 of Phthisis. Died in City Poorhouse usual residence 99 New Vennel.  Parents listed here are instead William Love and Grace Thomson.


So both My 3rd gg and his brother William list both Grace Crosbie and Grace Thomson on various different records over the years. In the 1851 census, Grace Love is aged 21, so she cannot possibly be the mother of Alexander who is Aged 13. So maybe that Grace is Grace Thomson?


I'm so confused. There's no record of William Love marrying Grace Thomson but there are siblings of my 3rd GG whose mother is Grace Thomson:


Thomas Love born 1856 son of William Love, Shoemaker, & Grace Thomson. He was born in Poorhouse so would his mother Grace have been an inmate in poorhouse then?


Also found Richard Love (1854-1856), son of William Love(Deceased) and Grace Thomson.


This fits with My 4th GG William Love who died in 1856 as a pauper but was a shoemaker. He died in the poorhouse of Inflamation of Brain.


I found Grace Thomson's death certificate. The info is as follows:


Grace-Gordon Brown-Love, Widow of William Love, Shoemaker, died aged 33 on December 9th 1862 at 3 Carrick Street of TB. Parents Robert Thomson & Waltina McGuffie.
Informant was Step Son Ar Love (Alexander?). So that clears that up? He was first with Grace Crosbie and then with Grace Thomson? And that's why William & Alexander list both Graces on various records?


I'm looking into other siblings to see who they list as their parents so I can get a better idea.


It looks like at least Thomas Love, as well as his parents William & Grace Thomson were in the poorhouse, as well as William's son Alexander. I will make a plan to visit the Mitchell Library to view these records if I can. I am hoping the poor law application records will shed some light on the parents. I've had some success with brick walls in other family lines.


My understanding from the information was that my 4th GG William Love (1812-1855) first Marries Grace Crosbie & has Alexander & William then  gets with Grace Thomson?


But then who is the Grace that is living with William in 1841 that is the same age as him?


I'm sorry for such a long post & so much info but this is a very complicated thing so I tried to include only the most recent info but there's still a lot there.
I’m just so stumped. If anyone has any thoughts about what this could mean and who is the “correct “ Grace, then I would be so thankful

[wivenhoe]

Ancestry Census Scotland 1841  at 47 King Street Glasgow St Marys
HEPBURN  Alexr     45y   shoe m                  b. Scotland
HEPBURN  Mary      35y                               b. Lanarkshire
HEPBURN Marjery   20y                               b. Lanarkshire
LOVE       Janet        9y                               b. Lanarkshire
LOVE       James      7y                                b. Lanarkshire
LOVE       Mary        4y                                b. Lanarkshire
LOVE       Merander  4m                               b. Lanarkshire
DUNMORE Margaret  20y                             b. Lanarkshire
SMITH     Marjery     20y                             b. Lanarkshire 


 

[ColC]

1841 New Vennal, Glasgow

LOVE   Wm           25   Shoemaker Journeyman   Lanarkshire   
LOVE   Grace   25   Cotton Hand Loom Weaver   Lanarkshire   
LOVE   Alexander   15   Shoemaker Journeyman   Lanarkshire   
LOVE   Elizabeth   15   Cotton Power Loom Weaver   Lanarkshire   
LOVE   Alexander   3      Lanarkshire   
LOVE   Elizabeth   1      Lanarkshire   
CROSBIE   Grace   15   Cotton Power Loom Weaver   Lanarkshire   

Colin

[ColC]

Just a thought?

Scottish Gaelic   Giorsal
English Grace, Griselda, Grizzel


WILLIAM LOVE   MARRIED   GRIZEL CROSBIE   31/07/1835   BARONY

Colin

[Lavender13]

Just a thought?

Scottish Gaelic   Giorsal
English Grace, Griselda, Grizzel


WILLIAM LOVE   MARRIED   GRIZEL CROSBIE   31/07/1835   BARONY

Colin

Yes, as I said in my above post, Grace Crosbie Married William Love in 1835. That's the marriage there. Grizel & Grace were often interchangeable at this time so I tentatively assumed this was indeed the right pair.

[ColC]

I appreciate the information but I had to get a clear picture. There seems to be a lack of Birth/baptisms for the family on SP.

Colin

[AMBLY]

Hello,

From all the information you posted - it certainly appears that William Love Snr married 1st Grizel (Grace) Crosbie , and then married again to Grace Thomson. "Grizel" and variants was a common alt name in Scotland for Grace.

That's even with seeing that  William Jnr appears to have stated his Stepmother, not his mother when he married 1865 ( whereas brother Alexander stated his correct mother's name when he married 1868)

In 1841, the Grace Crosbie in the household could be as old as 19 going by the age rounding rules. And by name, likely a relative of Grace Love nee Crosbie - a cousin perhaps. This wouldn't be unusual - remembering the Scottish naming pattern, could see to a bunch of 1st cousins with the same names.

My query would be regarding the Richard in 1851 aged 2 (born abt 1849) and Richard aged 2 who died 1856 (born abt 1854). Since it was common for next-born children born after a deceased sibling of the same gender, to be given the same forename .... would that suggest Grace Thomson is more likely to be the mother of both?  (I'm not sure ...thinking          ?)

Here is this 1861 Census :
CENSUS 1861: At .....? (Close?) No 3 Carrick St , Clyde, Glasgow
Head: Grace LOVE 30, b  Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Stepson: Alexander LOVE, 23, Housepainter, b Glasgow
Son: Robert LOVE 9, Scholar, b Glasgow

Cheers,
AMBLY

[Lavender13]

I appreciate the information but I had to get a clear picture. There seems to be a lack of Birth/baptisms for the family on SP.

Colin

Oh absolutely. I appreciate your help! I certainly can't find any births or baptisms either. It seems this family didn't bother with registering, or their records were lost. It is only when it was compulsory to register that they began registering their children.

I did find a death registration for the daughter of William Love. Elizabeth who appears in the 1841 census. She died in 1841 aged 2 of Hooping Cough. Aside from that, I see no other OPR records.

[Lavender13]

Hello,

From all the information you posted - it certainly appears that William Love Snr married 1st Grizel (Grace) Crosbie , and then married again to Grace Thomson. "Grizel" and variants was a common alt name in Scotland for Grace.

That's even with seeing that  William Jnr appears to have stated his Stepmother, not his mother when he married 1865 ( whereas brother Alexander stated his correct mother's name when he married 1868)

In 1841, the Grace Crosbie in the household could be as old as 19 going by the age rounding rules. And by name, likely a relative of Grace Love nee Crosbie - a cousin perhaps. This wouldn't be unusual - remembering the Scottish naming pattern, could see to a bunch of 1st cousins with the same names.

My query would be regarding the Richard in 1851 aged 2 (born abt 1849) and Richard aged 2 who died 1856 (born abt 1854). Since it was common for next-born children born after a deceased sibling of the same gender, to be given the same forename .... would that suggest Grace Thomson is more likely to be the mother of both?  (I'm not sure ...thinking          ?)

Here is this 1861 Census :
CENSUS 1861: At .....? (Close?) No 3 Carrick St , Clyde, Glasgow
Head: Grace LOVE 30, b  Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Stepson: Alexander LOVE, 23, Housepainter, b Glasgow
Son: Robert LOVE 9, Scholar, b Glasgow

Cheers,
AMBLY

Thanks so much for the 1861 census! So at least there is definite conformation that Grace Thomson was Alexander's step mother.

I have looked into Grace Thomson's family but not that of Grace Crosbie. But it looks like Grace Crosbie is my biological 4th GG so I will have to look into what I can about her.

I'm curious about the Richards too. Rochard Love 1 was born sometime around 1849 and Richard Love 2 was born around July 1853. His death certificate lists him as 2 years & 6 mo old so thats the approx date from that info.

William Jr, Richard's brother, was born between 1842 & 1849 so I know Grace Crosbie was alive at least until then but died sometime before 1851 as the Grace that is on the 1851 census is only 21,  so she could not be Grace Crosbie.

I've seen the families follow the naming patterns a lot in other lines so it makes sense that Richard was named after his brother who passed. But I'm not sure if in those times, the new baby would be called after his brother who had a different mother.

Would the step mother agree to it? Would it be the choice of the father and Grace just didn't hsve a say? Interesting.