Mysterious children

[sparrett]

This link to the obit for Eleanor HOLMES nee CLARKE, wife of Joseph and mother of Maude HOLMES.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268292363?searchTerm=%22duncan%20clarke%22.

And I think this would be the death of Eleanor’s mother Hessie (not Hessie) CLARKE Hessie misprinted here as Jessie

[wivenhoe]

Your grandmother is the Margaret, listed as daughter on the death certificate of John James Duncan Clark, died 1902?

The listing of the names might suggest birth order. Are these children also given ages?

When did your grandmother Margaret come into the care of the CLARKs?

When and where did your grandmother Margaret marry?.   How does she name her parents, and her birthplace?.

Who are the witnesses - might be one of her "siblings"?

[sparrett]

 So John James Duncan CLARKE was one of the many children to Hessie and Duncan CLARKE and brother to Eleanor HOLMES.
Sue

[maddys52]

Your grandmother is the Margaret, listed as daughter on the death certificate of John James Duncan Clark, died 1902?

The listing of the names might suggest birth order. Are these children also given ages?

When did your grandmother Margaret come into the care of the CLARKs?

When and where did your grandmother Margaret marry?.   How does she name her parents, and her birthplace?.

Who are the witnesses - might be one of her "siblings"?

I think Alan says his grandmother was Olive, noted on the memorials for John James Duncan CLARK as the only daughter mentioned.

[Eric Hatfield]

It is not a birth. It is a memorial notice (as stated).

Sorry, my mistake. The link opened up at the top of the page and the very first item was CLARK and I thought you must have been referring to that. I can see that was a silly assumption by me!

Thanks for the "In Memoriam" link, I hadn't seen it before. (I have checked so many deaths on Trove and so rarely find relatives back in those days have inserted notices in the papers, so I'm surprised and pleased to see this.)

Daughter Olive is my grandmother of course, but I wonder who "friend, WP" is?

[Eric Hatfield]

Possibly not related to this family at all, but I'm wondering who this is (can't find a relevant entry on the Victorian BDM index for birth or death) death in 1890

These are so interesting, thanks. Like you, I haven't found any of these in Vic BDM official records, but they look interesting. I wonder how many marriages involved John James Clark and Charlotte?

Also curious if these happened to be the Clarks I am interest in .....

(1) The children have different names to those recorded on JJDClark's documentation.
(2) William Lesley was born and died in 1891. My Grandmother was born in January 1891, and I assumed was adopted shortly after (no formal adoption records back then). So the timing seems unlikely.

So I'm inclined to think this is a different couple, but it is curious.

[Eric Hatfield]

Just as a side note also buried with them is a Jane Knight which, interestingly, Knight been the surname  which Charlotte used as a alias when obtaining the baby Henry Dwyer in 1893. I haven't been able to work out the connection yet. Just thought i would post as it might come in handy at a later date.

Thanks. I had seen that at the cemetery and wondered the same thing, but hadn't been able to find any connection. Yet presumably there had to be one. But I hadn't made the connection about the false name Charlotte gave. I have heard that maintaining a false identity, even for a short time, is quite hard, so choosing the name of someone you know well is supposed to make it easier.

[Eric Hatfield]

In the early days, adoptions did not involve reissuing the child's birth certificate. It was more of an informal system. The change came about sometime in the 20th century. Not sure of the date.

I think formal adoptions became law and began about 1928 from memory.

[Eric Hatfield]

Your grandmother is the Margaret, listed as daughter on the death certificate of John James Duncan Clark, died 1902?

My grandmother was Olive, who wasn't mentioned on JJD Clark's death documentation - presumably as she wasn't his "issue".

The listing of the names might suggest birth order. Are these children also given ages?

Since Charlotte is listed as informant, I would guess the same as you have that it might be birth order. But no ages are listed, presumably because none were still alive.

When did your grandmother Margaret come into the care of the CLARKs?

I don't know, there is no record I can find of that. But based on the unfortunate case of Henry Dwyer, whose inquest is referred to above, I'm guessing fairly soon after birth.

When and where did your grandmother Margaret marry?.   How does she name her parents, and her birthplace?.

She married in 1913 at CofE Prahran. She says she was born at Malvern, which I believe is correct. (DNA and other evidence points to her mother being Mary McDonald, and the birth records show Mary McDonald 19, being the mother of Olive, with no father named.) Parents are names as JJD Clark & Charlotte Bond.

Who are the witnesses - might be one of her "siblings"?

Unfortunately, I don't think so. They were William Stephen Baker (or perhaps Parker), who I discovered somewhere was a local church official, and Alice Stokes who may have been a friend, I don't know. The story from my grandmother via my mother is that they married in haste without telling Charlotte and caught the train to NSW that night, where they lived for the rest of their lives. Ernest's family (his birth name was Edward) apparently had no idea where he was.