Carrolls in Manchester

[Runner55]

Hi Rootschatters

Myself and some American cousins have been trying for some time now on Ancestry, and other similar databases, to find a birth record for an ancestor named John Francis Carroll born 1850, supposedly in Manchester.

There is one birth record that keeps coming up for a John Francis Carroll born late in 1850 in Oldham, Lancashire, but following the future path in England of this particular John Francis suggests it's not our man, because our John Francis Carroll emigrated to America with his parents c.1867 - my American cousins are his descendants.

Our John Francis Carroll's parents were Mark Carroll and Catherine (nee Fagan), both Irish immigrants who settled in Manchester (late 1840's) where Mark Carroll was a silk weaver - obviously seeking work opportunities in the English mills round the years of the potato famine in Ireland.

What we do have, however, are the 1851 England Census where Mark, Catherine and John Francis (5 months old) are living on Camp Street in Manchester; and the 1861 England Census where the family have moved over to Atherton, Lancashire - obviously still involved in the silk weaving industry.

Having exhausted all the usual on-line databases, would anyone know of any other archive records for Manchester that might not have been digitised yet where we might be able to locate John Francis Carroll's baptism or civil birth record - I believe civil registration started in England in 1837.

Any steer would be most appreciated!

Thanking you in advance
Runner55

[Milliepede]

Do you know when his parents married?  Is it possible he was born in Ireland or registered under Fagan.

Did he have younger siblings born in Manchester area? 

[Runner55]

Hi Milliepede

Thank you for your reply.  No known siblings, and also none listed on the family's emigration voyage to America in 1867.   We have also looked at the Irish birth records under both names of Carroll and Fagan (likewise, we've searched both names in the English records too).

Never been able to find possible marriage records in either Ireland or England either. Very frustrating.

Unfortunately, keep coming up negative.  Would you be aware of any other sources of information - church records etc., that haven't been digitised yet?

Many thanks
Runner55

[amondg]

Were they C of E or R C  ?
Not all catholic baptisms are on line yet.


From 1851 census are you assuming that Ann Fegan is Catherine's mother? 

She could be Mark's mother if she had been widowed before and remarried.

[Milliepede]

Just a thought but what about O’Carroll spelling in case they dropped the O

I don’t know about offline records for Manchester I’m afraid.  A Catholic baptism somewhere perhaps.

Have you used the GRO website birth index which allows for different spellings? 

[amondg]

Are they the one's in New York  1870 because their ages vary a lot, makes it difficult to pin down a birth year.

1851 Mark is 24  Catherine 26
1861 Mark is 30  Catherine 30
1870 Mark is 64 Catherine 46  - John with them is 40?
1880 Mark is 50 Catherine 49


ADDED
1875 State census New York they are both 45 years old and son John 21

If he was born 1850 he should be 25
 

[Treetotal]

I have Carrolls from Ireland who went to Manchester after the 1841 potato famine. They too went to live in America and their ages vary between the censuses, also their surname varied between ...Carroll, Carrol and Karell, also Catherine, Kathryn, Kate and Cate were variations for her Christian name. The census in America showed that they could read or write, so it's not surprising, but very frustrating.
Carol

[amondg]

Do you have Mark Carroll's death certificate ? (12939)

It will have his parents names on it.

If I have the correct one he died 2 August 1892 buried 6th at Holy Cross Cemetery Brooklyn.

Have you contacted the cemetery to see if they have additional information re his interment,

common grave?, who purchased the grave? Is Catherine buried with him?

ADDED
Tel # for the cemetery 718-284-4520

Mark and John F are in the same grave - Section OLIV Row G Plot 56

The website says to contact them if you cannot find a person, I expect they have paper files to consult.

[Runner55]

Many thanks to all further replies; amondg, Treetotal and Milliepede. 

In answer to your questions, the family were Catholics and we've trawled the GRO website so many times, alas to no avail.  We don't have Mark's death certificate but we do have John Francis's death certificate in New York, and Mark Carroll and Catherine Fagan are shown as his parents.

The grave in the Holy Cross Cemetery, Brooklyn where Mark and John Francis are buried was actually bought by John Francis, and JF's mother Catherine is also buried there, as was his own wife Teresa.

Yes, they are the right US census records - the dates of birth for the family on these documents do tend to jump about a lot, to the extreme - seems to be a common thing back in those days - total lack of consistency in birth dates, particularly Irish Census records, as I've found with other branches of my family research. People had all sorts of personal reasons for changing their birth dates. Very frustrating (and inconsiderate  ) for we modern family history researchers!

We've tried every type of spelling variation for all the names, and also searched high and low across all birth and marriage records in England (way beyond Manchester) and across all counties of Ireland.

It's a total mystery and I wonder if John Francis was never registered as a civil birth, but that his baptism lies somewhere in un-digitised Catholic church records, most likely Manchester. 

One thing I've always been able to rely upon in my own Irish Catholic research is baptism records - they might've missed the odd civil registration but woe betide a child not getting baptised!

All input has been much appreciated.  I guess our search goes on and hopefully more baptism records will come on-line in due course.

Runner55