Wall & Browne, Stay Makers, Taylors and Habit Makers

[Geordie daughter]

David, given what you've dug up about John Wall's apprenticeship to Weaver Davis, etc, it's just struck me that maybe I'm looking at this puzzle the wrong way. What if John Wall was either the financial backer or the accountant in the partnership with John Browne, rather than a tailor? It may explain why there's no mention of J.W. in that trade in the directories.

[DRH123]

It's John Browne Wall (b1796) who was the apprentice to Weaver Davis and became an auctioneer; his father being John Wall the tea dealer.

I assume it's the same John Wall who gets two entries in the 1793, as part of Daniel & Wall, tea dealers and china men, and as an auctioneer. Both at Wine Street. So the son followed one of his father's trades.

There was at the time a very big shot in Bristol called Thomas Daniel, several times mayor and sometimes known as the "King of Bristol". He was primarily a sugar merchant but had  fingers in many other pies so I wonder if he could have been the money man in Daniel & Wall. But that doesn't tell us anything about the partnership between John Wall and John Browne. Browne had done the apprenticeship so presumably had the practical knowledge but - unless I've missed it - you haven't found anything about Wall's earlier career. He could be the brother-in-law who had the capital to help set up the business, or another peruke or stay maker who was an equal partner, or the junior partner taken on through family loyalty, and who soon found out that stays were not for him. I don't know if the order of the names is any indication of the seniority of the partners, in either firm.

Coincidentally, I live little more then a mile from Lambridge - but I don't have any local knowledge of Mary Ann Brown 

David

[Geordie daughter]

Sorry, yes, you're right, I've got myself horribly muddled, more than once in my last posts, actually. It was J.B.W (b.1796) himself who married Margaret, not his son. That'll teach me to reply to posts while juggling several other things...

John Wall the tea dealer is certainly proving to be difficult to unearth anything about, as he's practically invisible before the 1793 Directory. I've tried scouring the earlier Bristol Poll books, but found nary a sniff of him, so it's beginning to look very much as if he has moved to Bristol c.1787, either along with, or around the same time as, John Browne, from somewhere else entirely, possibly Norfolk, if Ciderdrinker's findings are anything to go by. If the John Wall/Esther Browne marriage is the correct one, and the J.W. who died in Bristol aged 65 in 1817, is this same man, he would have been roughly the same age as John Browne. Apparently setting up as a tailor required capital of between £100 and £500, so I'd be inclined to think that that was probably J.W.'s function in the business, unless we find evidence to suggest otherwise. 

[DRH123]

Two of the deeeds involving "John Wall, tea-dealer" are dated 1820 and 1821, so it looks unlikely that he died in 1817.

https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/search/all:records/0_50/all/score_desc/%22John%20Wall%22%20tea

Unless that's the son J B Wall. He would have finished his apprenticeship in about 1817. He called himself an accountant when he became a burgess in 1818 and an auctioneer later on, but perhaps he tried to continue his father's tea business for a few years.

The earliest is dated 1786, so he was in Bristol by then.
I would guess that tea dealing was always his main occupation

If you search the Bristol Archives for "John Wall" - without the "tea" - and ignore the socialist poet, there are more deeds. Some are fairly certainly for a different person. One in 1782 might be him. Two in 1823 with "John Wall, gentleman" involve the same properties as some with the tea-dealer. The change to "gentleman" suggests retirement and that this is not the son. ... although his partner changes from "Thomas Pope, carpenter" to "Thomas Pope, architect" to "John Pope, gentleman". If John P is a son of Thomas P but calls himself gentleman, I suppose so could John Wall junior.  You might have to look at the actual documents to resolve that.

They certainly are a hard lot to pin down!

David

[Geordie daughter]

Yes, the Walls are definitely a very elusive lot - there are either none at all where I need them to be, or too many by half.

The earliest dated deed corresponds pretty much with what I have as an estimated date of arrival in Bristol for John Browne, I think. In his case, the evidence is the baptisms of two of his children, Samuel and Mary Ann, at the Castle Green meeting house on the same day. I haven't got the exact details to hand at the minute, but if I recall correctly, it was in 1787.

All the Bristol merchants seemed to call themselves "gentlemen"/Esquire once they'd reached a certain level of financial success. John's son William was certainly styling himself William Browne, Esq., by around 1820 or so, even though he was the son of a tailor, so it's difficult to come to any conclusions. Today has been fairly manic for me, but as soon as I have a quiet day to devote to going through what Bristol Archives has to offer, I will take a look at the info.

[DRH123]

Aha! You might find this will interesting:

 WALL, John, 1833
Male - Auctioneer - Husband of Esther WALL - City of Bristol - 1833 - £100.00

https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/indexes/Wills?snippet=ead84a3d-6ef9-4288-b392-b1b764a1cfbf

I suppose it's still possible he died in 1817 but the will wasn't proved until 1833.

Also possible relevant:

 BROWN, Elizabeth, 1799
Female - Widow - City of Bristol - 1799

Could be Arthur's widow and have information about his children ... or could be unrelated.

David

[Geordie daughter]

Oh, David, that's a brilliant find! And yes, if that's the right Elizabeth Brown it might tie up quite a few loose ends. Wills can be surprisingly informative, I've found. I only discovered this weekend that one of the early partners in Browne, Cavenagh and Browne's bank, called Emanuel Bayly, was the brother-in-law of another of the  partners, a relationship which I wasn't aware of until I downloaded E.B.'s father's will from TNA.

[Capetown]

There does seem to be various articles regarding John WALL, Bristol.

Not sure if this helps???

Bristol MIRROR - Saturday 2 December 1815

TO THE PUBLIC

JOHN WALL, Appraiser, Auctioneer, and Undertaker, returns sincere thanks to his Friends for the support he has received for upwards of Twenty Years; and begs to leave to inform them, and the Public, that having declined the Tea Business in Dolphin-Street, he has removed to NO. 1 CUMBERLAND STREET; but continues his exertions in the above capacities, and earnestly solicits their futhre Patronage, promising every attention and assiduity which promote the Interests of his employers.

INVENTORIES, TAKEN. BANKRUPTS' and other ACCOUNTS SETTLED.

1 December 1815.

[Capetown]

The Marriage Licence and Bond for the marriage at Dursley 2 January 1772 is on the Forest of Dean Family History website

John WALL, aged 30, Batchelor - occupation: CARPENTER residence: Dursley
Hester COLLIER, Spinster, aged 20 -

No names given for John WALL's father
Hester COLLIER, father: Thomas CARPENTER, occupation:Miner.